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Old 20th April 2017, 22:18   #331
Bald Rick
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I don't understand this, the 2018 peak timetable proposes 2tph Rainham to Luton, 2tph Maidstone East to Cambridge & 2tph from each of Orpington and Sevenoaks to run via the Catford Loop so I don't understand how this forces a 20 minute cycle - can you explain the link here please?

IMO they'd be better off focusing the Kent services on the Catford Loop, any services via London Bridge should run onto the BML because having parallel movements in the London Bridge area (i.e. between Thameslink & Kent lines) sort of defeats one of the key objectives of the whole project.
Your 2nd para sums it up perfectly.

The Kent timetable for services ex Cannon St run on a 20 minute cycle (off peak) and 22 minute cycle (peak). Note this doesn't mean a 3tph service to certain destinations, rather it is train paths that do roughly the same thing in the Metro area. E.g. 1702 Hastings, 1724 Ramsgate, 1745 (46) Folkestone, 1808 Ramsgate all have the same routing.

Trains coming out of the TL core via London Bridge to Kent would have to fit into this cycle. But as we know, the TL trains would be in some form of half hourly cycle. So it won't work, at least not reliably and not without plenty of pathing time. Unless, of course, you completely recast the Kent Metro timetable to fit around a handful of Thameslink services.

Hence why it would be somewhat easier from a timetabling perspective to keep TL services via London Bridge heading down the Sydenham corridor, and anything going to Kent to be routed via Bromley South.

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Old 21st April 2017, 00:11   #332
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Only dozens - why I am not surprised.

What I don't get is why keep to the Dogma of the announced pairings as surely the suggested change would make the whole Southern section a lot smoother to organise. 15 minute paths evenly used would surely help the planning?
There are loads of trains on the Brighton Main Line though and the Thameslink services have never been evenly spread from Brighton because they have different calling patterns. Add to that the issue of pathing a non-stop service to Gatwick and you can see why 15 minute gaps wouldn't actually help planning.

Looking at the consultation document, the Bedford to Gatwick service calls at Norwood Junction so won't have the same running time between East Croydon and London Bridge as the Bedford to Brighton service. At the moment, Bedford departures from East Croydon off peak are 13 / 17 minutes apart (xx25 from Brighton, xx38 from Three Bridges).

If there will be six trains an hour from Redhill to East Croydon, it makes lots of sense for the services to be exactly 10 minutes apart even if two go to Victoria and four go to London Bridge. If they are 10 minutes apart at Redhill and they have different calling patterns, they will be a bit closer to each other at East Croydon.

Whilst we are told that the timetable is starting from a blank sheet of paper, lots of it is fixed by what happens elsewhere eg Arun Valley to Portsmouth / Southampton by times west of Havant. There was also the suggestion that the Quarry line off-peak service south of East Croydon from 2015 is in its future form already. That has Thameslink trains to Brighton departing East Croydon at xx19 / xx26 / xx49 / xx56 so not well spaced.
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Old 21st April 2017, 06:08   #333
Minstral25
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There are loads of trains on the Brighton Main Line though and the Thameslink services have never been evenly spread from Brighton because they have different calling patterns. Add to that the issue of pathing a non-stop service to Gatwick and you can see why 15 minute gaps wouldn't actually help planning.

Looking at the consultation document, the Bedford to Gatwick service calls at Norwood Junction so won't have the same running time between East Croydon and London Bridge as the Bedford to Brighton service. At the moment, Bedford departures from East Croydon off peak are 13 / 17 minutes apart (xx25 from Brighton, xx38 from Three Bridges).

If there will be six trains an hour from Redhill to East Croydon, it makes lots of sense for the services to be exactly 10 minutes apart even if two go to Victoria and four go to London Bridge. If they are 10 minutes apart at Redhill and they have different calling patterns, they will be a bit closer to each other at East Croydon.

Whilst we are told that the timetable is starting from a blank sheet of paper, lots of it is fixed by what happens elsewhere eg Arun Valley to Portsmouth / Southampton by times west of Havant. There was also the suggestion that the Quarry line off-peak service south of East Croydon from 2015 is in its future form already. That has Thameslink trains to Brighton departing East Croydon at xx19 / xx26 / xx49 / xx56 so not well spaced.
Some good points but I don't grasp why having evenly spaced trains cause timetable issues. From a passenger perspective they are very good.

I can understand why if you have different calling patterns you'd get some variations but leaving London/East Croydon where calling is the same should be fine. Then South of East Croydon the slightly different pattern will mean different arrival time but as the stations are evenly balanced (both Brighton trains south of East Croydon have 6 stops (mostly different) for example) it won't be that far out at Brighton.

On Redhill route you point out 10 minute spacing but that is not good for the customer as it becomes LBG/LBG/VIC - OK for VIC as half-hourly, but 10/20 on LBG - from Redhill 98% of passengers either want LBG or VIC but not either.

I'm sure there are lots of other problems in the mix but when the opportunity is to fully rebuild a whole timetable do you leave these issues in place?
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Old 21st April 2017, 06:55   #334
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This is the sort of bewilderingly complex problem that, one day, perhaps an artificial intelligence system will be able to solve better than humans on their own.
Some clever people not too long ago designed a computer algorithm than could beat an advanced human player at Go.

Frankly, that's a doddle compared to automating train planning.
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:37   #335
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The Kent timetable for services ex Cannon St run on a 20 minute cycle (off peak) and 22 minute cycle (peak). Note this doesn't mean a 3tph service to certain destinations, rather it is train paths that do roughly the same thing in the Metro area. E.g. 1702 Hastings, 1724 Ramsgate, 1745 (46) Folkestone, 1808 Ramsgate all have the same routing.

Trains coming out of the TL core via London Bridge to Kent would have to fit into this cycle. But as we know, the TL trains would be in some form of half hourly cycle. So it won't work, at least not reliably and not without plenty of pathing time. Unless, of course, you completely recast the Kent Metro timetable to fit around a handful of Thameslink services.

Hence why it would be somewhat easier from a timetabling perspective to keep TL services via London Bridge heading down the Sydenham corridor, and anything going to Kent to be routed via Bromley South.
Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense.
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Old 7th June 2017, 16:29   #336
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Via Greenwich. but will replace the current stoppers from Gillingham up to Dartford. There's no need or room to run Gillingham to Charing X on top of Rainham to Luton.

Disregard all the current service patterns as the entire metro area will be re-cast.
Well there's always the option of doing away with the Charing X to Gravesend via Sidcup service? Cut that back to Dartford, and keep the Woolwich service along with the Thameslink service, this would be better surely?
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Old 7th June 2017, 17:39   #337
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So the temporary service cuts on the Greenwich line introduced since 2015 due to London Bridge rebuilding work are to stay after Jan 2018 in Southeasterns planned timetable?!

Surely it was supposed to improve our journeys! It cut nigh on half the capacity in the evening peak from central London and that remains? How is that justified - there's trains only every half hour or near enough in the rush hour to busy stations but we weren't told it would last into 2018.

https://fromthemurkydepths.wordpress...ent-from-2018/
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Old 7th June 2017, 20:30   #338
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Well there's always the option of doing away with the Charing X to Gravesend via Sidcup service? Cut that back to Dartford, and keep the Woolwich service along with the Thameslink service, this would be better surely?
Better for who?
Certainly not for those that use the sidcup line
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Old 9th June 2017, 13:28   #339
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So the temporary service cuts on the Greenwich line introduced since 2015 due to London Bridge rebuilding work are to stay after Jan 2018 in Southeasterns planned timetable?!

Surely it was supposed to improve our journeys! It cut nigh on half the capacity in the evening peak from central London and that remains? How is that justified - there's trains only every half hour or near enough in the rush hour to busy stations but we weren't told it would last into 2018.

https://fromthemurkydepths.wordpress...ent-from-2018/
It has always been publicised that the changes were permanent.
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Old 9th June 2017, 17:08   #340
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Can you link to anything that said the large cuts introduced since 2015 were permanent?

We were always told it would revert back to the pre-2015 levels when building work was complete. That was at public meetings, meet the manager events, on leaflets and in every line of communication. It was never stated at any event that the North Kent line would see such large permanent peak time cuts.

What's happening to all the train paths that existed before 2015? I can't see any improvements elsewhere.
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Old 9th June 2017, 19:42   #341
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Can you link to anything that said the large cuts introduced since 2015 were permanent?

We were always told it would revert back to the pre-2015 levels when building work was complete. That was at public meetings, meet the manager events, on leaflets and in every line of communication. It was never stated at any event that the North Kent line would see such large permanent peak time cuts.

What's happening to all the train paths that existed before 2015? I can't see any improvements elsewhere.
Cannon Street has dropped from 25tph to 22tph capacity due to the Thameslink works eating up ECS capacity, and longer trains, which means a few paths disappeared.

The Kent Route consultation has a big diagram on page 20 that shows all the morning peak paths, which are:

- 5tph on the Greenwich Lines (2 Dartfords, 2 Gillinghams, 1 Slade Green)
- 18tph via New Cross & Lewisham (3 Barnehursts, 2 Crayfords, 1 Dartfords, 3 Hayes, 3 Sevenoaks, 2 Broadstairs, 1 Dumpton Park, 1 Ore, 1 Ashford, 1 Ramsgate)

So that's where the paths are and it seems they shall remain. I don't know what wasn't on the Greenwich Lines before 2015 that is now.

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Old 10th June 2017, 15:50   #342
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Cannon Street has dropped from 25tph to 22tph capacity due to the Thameslink works eating up ECS capacity, and longer trains, which means a few paths disappeared.

The Kent Route consultation has a big diagram on page 20 that shows all the morning peak paths, which are:

- 5tph on the Greenwich Lines (2 Dartfords, 2 Gillinghams, 1 Slade Green)
- 18tph via New Cross & Lewisham (3 Barnehursts, 2 Crayfords, 1 Dartfords, 3 Hayes, 3 Sevenoaks, 2 Broadstairs, 1 Dumpton Park, 1 Ore, 1 Ashford, 1 Ramsgate)

So that's where the paths are and it seems they shall remain. I don't know what wasn't on the Greenwich Lines before 2015 that is now.

You also get 3tph from Charing Cross to Dartford.
To give a comparison to pre-2015 services, the evening peak has dropped from 8 trains an hour to about 2 for the busiest period. A big drop. Even accounting for 25 tph becoming 22 tph, Greenwich and stations around there see a bigger reduction.

The reduction in peak capacity at Cannon Street was brought up in meetings and events with NR and Southeastern and assurances were made that it wouldn't be a big factor. Certainly not to this extent. The main cuts are in the evening peak which is more than 5 tph paths that should exist.

In terms of longer trains the reverse has happened through Greenwich. Many 10 car services are now 6 or 8.

I'm sure the thinking may be well why don't people take a DLR. Yet that is increasingly busy, has no new trains coming for quite a few years and people in, say, Westcombe Park near the large new developments are not that close to the DLR. It's a bus ride on busy roads and more cost. And reductions for stations like Dartford where there's no alternative to central London will hit hard. 3 tph from Charing Cross still seems to give a net reduction from before.
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Old 12th June 2017, 18:02   #343
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One of many articles from the time prior to the works. I know that it was well advertised at the time as many passengers queried it.

Also of note that it's no longer physically possible to get from one side to another without blocking off every other running line in the process.

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/11...ges_next_week/
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Old 12th June 2017, 19:53   #344
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One of many articles from the time prior to the works. I know that it was well advertised at the time as many passengers queried it.

Also of note that it's no longer physically possible to get from one side to another without blocking off every other running line in the process.

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/11...ges_next_week/
I knew about the Charing Cross link being permanently cut and a reduction in tph Cannon Street can handle but the cuts are still bigger than 4 across the evening peak and that article claimed longer trains would compensate - this never happened. Southeastern cut the remaining services to 6 or 8 carriages.

I find it amusing that Deptford High Street is having millions spent right now to upgrade it and one main reason given is many new homes being built such as Convoys Wharf (3k homes) and many other large scale housing projects nearby that will bring many more commuters.

Thameslink via Greenwich will help in late 2018. Still a net cut for some stations though. And if it's a 8 car 700 that's not much better than a 10 car 376 being cut, or even 10-car 465.

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Old 13th June 2017, 08:57   #345
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Presumably from December '18 they are also expecting 12/6tph (peak/off peak) Crossrail to hoover up lots of local passengers from Abbey Wood - Woolwich areas with lots of space on trains created passengers from further out changing at Abbey Wood for Crossrail, leaving more room fro Greenwich - Deptford ara users (in theory by we all know what growth rates are actually like which tends to destroy assumptions...)
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