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Old 13th January 2017, 20:26   #46
D365
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Originally Posted by Failed Unit View Post
The local service will be into Moorgate, as now just 4 tph as now.
2tph - from Cambridge (going into core)
2tph - from Welwyn into core calling at Hatfield, potters bar, new Barnet, oakleigh park, new Southgate and Finsbury Park.

So no improvement in terms of frequency, but people from some of these stations may move away from Moorgate as the core stations may work better.
By peak-hour service, I mean the Welwyn 4tph which was planned to run to Caterham, although the southern destination might have changed. Is such a service not planned still?
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Old 13th January 2017, 20:43   #47
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Maidstone East now isn't it?
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Old 13th January 2017, 20:51   #48
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By peak-hour service, I mean the Welwyn 4tph which was planned to run to Caterham, although the southern destination might have changed. Is such a service not planned still?
No - only 2tph. I think Maidstone is the standard off peak. Need to look up the peak but I think it is a southeastern route.
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Old 13th January 2017, 20:53   #49
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It's 2tph Cambridge to Maidstone East and 2tph Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks with the Sevenoaks running at peak times only, providing a 4tph semi-fast service for Potters Bar, Hatfield etc in the peak direction.

Given Thameslink was supposed to do something about the tangle at London Bridge, having the Maidstone and Luton to Rainham services crossing on the flat in the station throat area seems to defeat the whole objective of the project, but that's a different debate...

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Old 13th January 2017, 20:55   #50
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By peak-hour service, I mean the Welwyn 4tph which was planned to run to Caterham, although the southern destination might have changed. Is such a service not planned still?
These are all outer-suburban. The inner-suburban service calling at all stations to Moorgate appears to be largely left alone. There would be a lot of merit in moving the all-stations service to Thameslink - more suitable services for the 700s, capacity uplift as trains would be 8 cars instead of 6, and allowing a big frequency uplift on the Hertford-Moorgate route as the Hertford Loop takes up the vacated paths into Moorgate. A bonus is more longer-distance services can keep 365s or 387s too, which wouldn't go down badly at all.
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Old 13th January 2017, 21:21   #51
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I'm annoyed there's still only one train per hour to/from Hatfield on Sunday, but if we get 4tph to Moorgate then that's better - except for the fact I'll have to go up to Finsbury Park to get those.

It would be nice if GTR was at least proposing two trains an hour on a Sunday into King's Cross. There must be ample capacity and it's just a cost thing or a belief that there's not enough passenger numbers - which I find hard to believe for much of the day (accepting there will be some quiet times, but there are in the week too!).
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Old 14th January 2017, 00:29   #52
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It's 2tph Cambridge to Maidstone East and 2tph Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks with the Sevenoaks running at peak times only, providing a 4tph semi-fast service for Potters Bar, Hatfield etc in the peak direction.

Given Thameslink was supposed to do something about the tangle at London Bridge, having the Maidstone and Luton to Rainham services crossing on the flat in the station throat area seems to defeat the whole objective of the project, but that's a different debate...
It won't be happening in the station throat area, and up Rainham to Luton services will be grade separated from down Thameslink services that are heading towards New Cross Gate. Up direction Thameslink trains off the Southeastern will use the most northern track of the four through the diveunder, and join the dedicated up Thameslink line at Blue Anchor junction.

From memory I think the opposite direction junction is known as Corbetts Lane, but will check later.

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Old 14th January 2017, 14:48   #53
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Word is that the New Southgate branch has, or is close to being, dropped.
I thought that was there for access to a new depot facility? Where would that go instead? Bizzarely I would have thought New Southgate was the worse place to have a depot and that Welwyn may well be better (on the existing carriage sidings) along with perhaps a facility at Broxbourne (on the existing yard there). The land must be cheaper too.
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Old 14th January 2017, 16:57   #54
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I thought that was there for access to a new depot facility? Where would that go instead? Bizzarely I would have thought New Southgate was the worse place to have a depot and that Welwyn may well be better (on the existing carriage sidings) along with perhaps a facility at Broxbourne (on the existing yard there). The land must be cheaper too.
Largely my response when I was told! ...and in response, dunno. I've been assured there are sites along the Lea Valley that could be used, though I'm not aware of any whatsoever...
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Old 14th January 2017, 18:19   #55
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Largely my response when I was told! ...and in response, dunno. I've been assured there are sites along the Lea Valley that could be used, though I'm not aware of any whatsoever...
The nearest sites I can think of would be Broxbourne at the top end and possibly near to Orient Way CS at the southern end of the Lea Valley though it must be said the latter is not directly on the Crossrail 2 Route.
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Old 14th January 2017, 19:37   #56
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The nearest sites I can think of would be Broxbourne at the top end and possibly near to Orient Way CS at the southern end of the Lea Valley though it must be said the latter is not directly on the Crossrail 2 Route.
Actually, you might be on to something there. You would want the depot as close to the core as you could mange (See: Old Oak Common, Plumstead, Ilford). Having a depot south of the portal wouldn't be too dissimilar to how the Northern Line is connected to Highgate Depot, or indeed, Crossrail 2 will be connected to Wimbledon Depot.

Regardless, this is somewhat off-topic for Gordon Hill, so we'd best leave it there!
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Old 14th January 2017, 21:12   #57
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It won't be happening in the station throat area, and up Rainham to Luton services will be grade separated from down Thameslink services that are heading towards New Cross Gate. Up direction Thameslink trains off the Southeastern will use the most northern track of the four through the diveunder, and join the dedicated up Thameslink line at Blue Anchor junction.

From memory I think the opposite direction junction is known as Corbetts Lane, but will check later.
That's still more integration with Southeastern services via London Bridge than was originally envisaged though, isn't it?
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Old 15th January 2017, 12:38   #58
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That's still more integration with Southeastern services via London Bridge than was originally envisaged though, isn't it?
Yes, I was really only wishing to emphasise that it wouldn't be done by flat crossing in the station area, but I agree there will be conflicts once away from the 'Thameslink' tracks but they will be on 'Southeastern' rather than 'Thameslink' main routes towards Sussex.

But as far as 'originally envisaged' goes, it really depends how long you go back in time for your start point.

The 2011 London and SE RUS definitely included four trains per hour to/from the SE in that area, it is presumably exactly why there are four lines through the dive under, rather than the three you'd be able to get away with otherwise. So they are going back to a previous 'share out' of routes between the different TOCs, which means the reasoning used in the TSGN consultation and report has been overturned.

But this is getting off the main purpose of this thread, it has already been covered in another more focussed discussion somewhere.
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Old 16th January 2017, 11:57   #59
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It's 2tph Cambridge to Maidstone East and 2tph Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks with the Sevenoaks running at peak times only, providing a 4tph semi-fast service for Potters Bar, Hatfield etc in the peak direction.

Given Thameslink was supposed to do something about the tangle at London Bridge, having the Maidstone and Luton to Rainham services crossing on the flat in the station throat area seems to defeat the whole objective of the project, but that's a different debate...
Worth pointing out when the track layout was settled on Thameslink was going to be running a 4tph service from London Bridge to Dartford so it's actually doing the same as NR originally planned for.
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