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Old 16th March 2017, 20:36   #1
neilmc
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Default Cumbria - Manchester route validity

Principally for Penrith but I assume the answer will apply for anywhere Lancaster-Carlisle. For an off-peak return going via:

Wigan North Western (TPE) - obviously valid as the direct train

Preston and Bolton - obviously valid as the shortest distance

Wigan North Western/ Wallgate - presumably valid as shown by journey planners. Raises an interesting question though as this is NEITHER the shortest journey or a direct train even though it's shorter than the direct train (TPE) so could it technically be NOT valid?

Warrington Bank Quay/ Central. As per Wigan. I am intending breaking my return journey overnight at Irlam, do you think there is any possibility I will have difficulty with Northern guards?

Just as an optional extra, would this ticket be valid via Preston and Blackburn?
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Old 16th March 2017, 20:52   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilmc View Post
Wigan North Western/ Wallgate - presumably valid as shown by journey planners. Raises an interesting question though as this is NEITHER the shortest journey or a direct train even though it's shorter than the direct train (TPE) so could it technically be NOT valid?
Origin Routeing Point – Oxenholme Lake District
Destination Routeing Point – MANCHESTER GROUP

This is valid as it's traceable on map MX
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Originally Posted by neilmc View Post
Warrington Bank Quay/ Central. As per Wigan. I am intending breaking my return journey overnight at Irlam, do you think there is any possibility I will have difficulty with Northern guards?
I note you do not ask if it's valid this way, but in case you or anyone else is wondering , it's traceable on maps XW+NR

But to answer the question: I do not think you will have problems with Northern Guards.
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Originally Posted by neilmc View Post
Just as an optional extra, would this ticket be valid via Preston and Blackburn?
Yes, on map MX

(Maps can be viewed here http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps)
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Old 16th March 2017, 21:41   #3
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Thanks, I was assuming via Warrington would be OK since

a) when travelling from East Midlands to Cumbria via Manchester, this is a standard routing avoiding changing in Manchester, assuming you don't mind trolling across Warrington centre with luggage just to get a Pendolino!

b) when going on to the Network Rail site and asking for journeys Penrith to Manchester, this option is also given for a few journeys.
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Old 16th March 2017, 21:50   #4
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Thanks, I was assuming via Warrington would be OK since

a) when travelling from East Midlands to Cumbria via Manchester, this is a standard routing avoiding changing in Manchester, assuming you don't mind trolling across Warrington centre with luggage just to get a Pendolino!

b) when going on to the Network Rail site and asking for journeys Penrith to Manchester, this option is also given for a few journeys.
I agree, but it surprised me given your doubts about whether it's valid to go via Wigan Wallgate, which is a shorter route than via Warrington.

That said, you can never assume anything with the Routeing Guide

Also, no need to cross Warrington centre if there's a suitably timed train from Bank Quay to Manchester.
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Old 17th March 2017, 01:41   #5
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Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
That said, you can never assume anything with the Routeing Guide
Indeed you can't. Penrith-Manchester is not valid on the trains between Warrington Bank Quay and Manchester, as there are no mapped routes via Earlestown Group (which is between them). A Penrith-Stalybridge ticket would be valid that way, though.
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Old 17th March 2017, 09:38   #6
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Indeed you can't. Penrith-Manchester is not valid on the trains between Warrington Bank Quay and Manchester, as there are no mapped routes via Earlestown Group (which is between them). A Penrith-Stalybridge ticket would be valid that way, though.
The Routeing Guide really could do with being recursive.

FWIW, talking about old style Reasonable Routes, I would say Chorley is clearly OK, Wigan is a bit south but still sort-of OK, Warrington is taking the mick a bit, particularly the CLC.

However if you use NRE it does give you a non-split route via the CLC.
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Old 17th March 2017, 12:56   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
The Routeing Guide really could do with being recursive.

FWIW, talking about old style Reasonable Routes, I would say Chorley is clearly OK, Wigan is a bit south but still sort-of OK, Warrington is taking the mick a bit, particularly the CLC.

However if you use NRE it does give you a non-split route via the CLC.
Warrington is perfectly reasonable imo. Part of what used to constitute a reasonable route was how quick it was to complete the journey that way. Local connections off the WCML can be horrendously bad after about 7pm or 8pm so it's only natural that as many options be open to passengers as possible.

FWIW I've heard guards/TMs advising pax (southbound) to change at Bank Quay for the ATW to Manchester, and I've never had an issue using tickets from Carlisle or further north on either route east from Warrington.
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Old 17th March 2017, 14:18   #8
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Routeing via Warrington BQ/Central figures on a surprisingly large set of journeys, eg Leeds-Southampton Any Permitted, as noted on another thread.
The options probably date back to the point on BR when the CLC route became virtually the only through route across Manchester with the running down of "LNWR/L&Y" routes via Wigan/Earlestown.
I could imagine these options might disappear now the L&M is becoming the primary east-west route (again), with TPE not operating via the CLC.
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Old 18th March 2017, 01:01   #9
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Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
The Routeing Guide really could do with being recursive.
Do you mean something like the following?

Oxenholme-Warrington Bank Quay is valid this way because it's the shortest route.
Warrington Bank Quay-Manchester Piccadilly is valid that way because that's the shortest route.
Therefore, Oxenholme-Manchester Piccadilly is valid going first this way then that.

If you do, the routeing guide wouldn't be worth much as almost any route is valid using the above logic. If you mean something else, whatever it is probably wouldn't allow the above route on an Oxenholme-Manchester ticket in the first place.
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Old 18th March 2017, 01:15   #10
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I think he means that if a route is permitted between A and Z, the relevant part of that same route should also be permitted between B and Y, etc
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Old 18th March 2017, 17:34   #11
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Originally Posted by JakeF View Post
I think he means that if a route is permitted between A and Z, the relevant part of that same route should also be permitted between B and Y, etc
I don't know what he meant. All I have is the word "recursive" and a suggestion that the change it represents is relevant to this thread.

If it means anything, "recursive" implies that something is repeated in some way. You wouldn't need to repeat anything to find a route from A to Z. You'd only need to know which A and Z to use.

For all I know, the word may have just been chosen because it sounds nice.
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Old 18th March 2017, 23:27   #12
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As far as I can trace, the word "recursive" was first used in the context of the National Routeing Guide some 10 years ago by Roland Perry on newsgroup uk.railway. In that discussion, a "recursive" Routeing Guide was taken to be one where:
  • if A - B is a Permitted route, and
  • x - A is a Permitted Route, and
  • B - y is a Permitted Route, then
  • x - A - B - y is a Permitted Route.
That was (and is) not a feature of the National Routeing Guide.

Last edited by John @ home; 18th March 2017 at 23:40.
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:06   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John @ home View Post
As far as I can trace, the word "recursive" was first used in the context of the National Routeing Guide some 10 years ago by Roland Perry on newsgroup uk.railway. In that discussion, a "recursive" Routeing Guide was taken to be one where:
  • if A - B is a Permitted route, and
  • x - A is a Permitted Route, and
  • B - y is a Permitted Route, then
  • x - A - B - y is a Permitted Route.
That was (and is) not a feature of the National Routeing Guide.
Thanks for the background. Unless I'm missing something, that never could be part of the National Routeing Guide.

If you simply added this to the NRCOC, then a passenger could say x is Wilnecote, y is Tamworth, and A-B is the journey he or she actually wants to make. Then buy an x-y ticket and break the journey to suit. I'm sure there's something else to it, though.
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Old 20th March 2017, 16:38   #14
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I understand recursive meant that if, say, a ticket from Penrith to Manchester was valid via Warrington then it would automatically be valid via all permitted routes between (i) Penrith & Warrington and (ii) Warrington and Manchester.

Such provision is not in the Routeing Guide at present. There are cases where a ticket is valid A - C via B and a ticket from B - C is valid via x or y, but a ticket from A - C is valid A - B - x- C but is not valid A - B -y -C.
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