[swcovas]

I would like to draw forum memebers' attention to the STILL ONGOING campaign for an improved service on the Heart of Wales line. Despite a reasonably positive cost benefit study 2 years ago the line continues to soldier on with a timetable which seems to serve no one satisfactorily.

The line has to be operated with the minimum number of units to provide 4 trains each way resulting in the first trains in each direction running as virtually empty stock for much of their journies. The first train arrives in Swansea just after 9am.....useless for commuter traffic and far too early for leisure traffic!! The first Salop bound train leaves Swansea at 0435! And there are more unsatisfactory aspects to the timetable. Have a look if you're not familiar.

Anyway, there is yet another project underway to campaign for the fifth train which is at the stage of requiring stakeholder feedback. I would like to encourage as many of you as possible to respond......the line needs all the help it can get!! Unfortunately getting info on what is happening on the line is sometimes difficult as the two websites are unimaginative, uninspiring and uninformative......Fishguard trains website have managed to create so much more in just campaigning on behalf of one station!!!

Have a click on to http://www.heart-of-wales.co.uk/news.htm#support for a bit more information. If you want to read the WELTAG Cost/Benefit analysis of two years ago it's at: http://www.heart-of-wales.co.uk/Howl..._reportfv2.pdf

[NSEFAN]

Not wishing to burst your bubble, but where is the rolling stock going to come from to allow a more frequent service to operate? I'm not familiar with the setup for south wales, but I'd be suprised if there were any units currently spare, especially now Fishguard gets a better service.

If this is the case, then the electrification of the Cardiff Valley lines (due around 2020, IIRC?) might need to happen first, so that some units (ideally class 150s) can be freed up for the Heart of Wales line.

I'm all for getting a better service on rural lines, but sadly we can't just buy single DMUs. (Unless you want a Class 139 Parry-people mover to be used!)

[swcovas]

Originally Posted by NSEFAN

Not wishing to burst your bubble, but where is the rolling stock going to come from to allow a more frequent service to operate? I'm not familiar with the setup for south wales, but I'd be suprised if there were any units currently spare, especially now Fishguard gets a better service.

If this is the case, then the electrification of the Cardiff Valley lines (due around 2020, IIRC?) might need to happen first, so that some units (ideally class 150s) can be freed up for the Heart of Wales line.

I'm all for getting a better service on rural lines, but sadly we can't just buy single DMUs. (Unless you want a Class 139 Parry-people mover to be used!)

I can't answer that one but I do feel very strongly that unless we make the noises we'll never see an improvement in services. There's no point in taking the "what's the point of campaigning, there's no stock available" type of attitude. There WAS stock available to run an extra service last week during the Royal Welsh Show. Two units which sat at Llandrindod between 0945 and 1830!!

[anthony263]

Personally I Have to agree with NSEFAN on this ATW simply dont have many spare units available at the moment.

Hopefully once electrification of the Cardiff Valley lines and SWML to Swansea are completed there should be a good number of class 150's & class 153's available.

I do agree however the heart of wales line deserves a far better service with trains extended beyond Shrewsbury to Crewe so a full 2 hourly service like the Pembroke Dock branch gets would be ideal.

[NSEFAN]

Originally Posted by swcovas

I can't answer that one but I do feel very strongly that unless we make the noises we'll never see an improvement in services. There's no point in taking the "what's the point of campaigning, there's no stock available" type of attitude. There WAS stock available to run an extra service last week during the Royal Welsh Show. Two units which sat at Llandrindod between 0945 and 1830!!

I would expect that those units had come from shortening other services, so users on another line would have potentially lost out. Like I said, I fully support improving the service but I just don't think it will be possible to maintain an increased frequency without one of the following:

-Removing a DMU from a diagram elsewhere
-Sourcing a single DMU from another TOC (unlikely as most TOCs with DMUs are also asking for more stock!)
-A major cascade of stock (such as the valley lines which I mentioned before)

Making noises is only the start. Someone has to address these issues before the service can be improved.

[6Gman]

If there was a will to provide the exrtra services I don't think providing the extra unit(s) would be the main issue. That, I fear, would be the contractual negotiations as ATW tried to get as much money as possible out of somebody (the WAG?)!

[merlodlliw]

Originally Posted by swcovas

I can't answer that one but I do feel very strongly that unless we make the noises we'll never see an improvement in services. There's no point in taking the "what's the point of campaigning, there's no stock available" type of attitude. There WAS stock available to run an extra service last week during the Royal Welsh Show. Two units which sat at Llandrindod between 0945 and 1830!!

Fully agree, if you don't campaign no one listens, The Royal Welsh DMUs I understand were part subsidised by RWS & Powys CC via WG, it was not ATW being kind hearted.

Currently ATW are looking at chopping services on lines that they say are over franchise commitments, Chester/Wrexham/Salop are the latest example of BH cuts since May. Plus the latest Timetable fiasco.

Bob

[ChiefPlanner]

The Royal Welsh workings were originally funded by the SRA , and I believe rolled forward in the franchise agreement.

[PHILIPE]

ATW wont do anything over and above their franchise. New Years Day on the Cardifff Valleys is a typical example. All other ATW routes have a service even Ebbw Vale which runs just over the other side of the hill from the Rhymney line. This is historical and goes back to the late 80s when New Years Day travel was not in such high demand as now and the services were withdrawn. On privatisation the Cardiff Valleys became a the Cardiff Valley TOC and subsequently the non requirement was not carried forward to ATW. Despite complaints every year from many areas, ATW will not budge. This is to highlight the fact ATW will not do anything over and above their franchise commitments. The DFT are not going to take any initiative to remedy so the only solution for an increased service on the HOW is for somebody to come forward and pay for it.

[tbtc]

Firstly, forget about any cascade of DMUs after the Valley Line electrification. The Pacers will be withdrawn later this decade and the 150s on Valley Line services will replace other Pacers. I don't see any trains being "spare" for the HOWL.

Main en-route originating stations are Llandrindod and Knighton, which are the origins for 13% and 10% of in-scope journeys respectively

Llandridnod has approx 47,000 passengers a year, so 23,500 departing passengers a year (since the stats count each "entry" and "exit" separately.

23,500 = roughly 65 passengers a day at the busiest intermediate HOWL station (spread over eight departures a day).

The two next busiest stations (Llandovery and Knighton) have a combined passenger volume roughly equal to Llandridnod. There are plenty of stations with just a couple of thousand passengers a year (a couple of passengers a day?).

Just to put the figures into perspective.

The route is notable for the large proportion of WAG Concessionary journeys made (16% of total journeys but 25% of journeys outside the summer months when they are barred, on account of crowding)

This doesn't really help the business case, when up to a quarter of the passengers are getting a free ride.

Option 1: one additional pair of trains: the northbound service departs from Swansea at 0707, calling at Llandrindod Wells at 0920 and arrives at Shrewsbury at 1105. The southbound service departs from Shrewsbury at 1609, calling at Llandrindod Wells at 1740 and arrives at Swansea at 2025. The other services receive some minor timing alterations to accommodate the additional trains but the structure of the timetable remains unchanged.

At the moment the service takes roughly four hours from Swansea to Shrewsbury (approximately an hour longer than the hourly service via Cardiff/ Newport), so eight hours for a round trip (plus recoverty time/ staff breaks) - one unit can do two round trips in a full day.

Adding in a fifth service sounds great, but it's going to take one unit all day to provide a marginal increase of one service.

But one extra unit could instead provide a clockface bi-hourly service between Knigton and Shrewsbury or something similar at the Swansea end of the route.

Option 3 was discounted as it did not meet the client requirements for through services between Swansea and Shrewsbury

There's never going to be much "end to end" traffic on the route (especially with the faster hourly service via Cardiff, with better trains), so why not focus more on the "local" aspect of the line?

Having services starting/ending at Llandrindod looks appealing, as it saves the first train of the day having come all the way from Swansea/Shrewsbury. However it would mean a tiny outstation which would be expensive (with little room to cope with unit/staff unavailability).
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Originally Posted by PHILIPE

ATW will not do anything over and above their franchise commitments

They will if there's any money in it for them.

But the Wales & Borders franchise requires the highest passenger subsidy in the UK (per mile) so most of the increases suggested on here are going to be unprofitable.

[swcovas]

Originally Posted by PHILIPE

ATW wont do anything over and above their franchise. New Years Day on the Cardifff Valleys is a typical example. All other ATW routes have a service even Ebbw Vale which runs just over the other side of the hill from the Rhymney line. This is historical and goes back to the late 80s when New Years Day travel was not in such high demand as now and the services were withdrawn. On privatisation the Cardiff Valleys became a the Cardiff Valley TOC and subsequently the non requirement was not carried forward to ATW. Despite complaints every year from many areas, ATW will not budge. This is to highlight the fact ATW will not do anything over and above their franchise commitments. The DFT are not going to take any initiative to remedy so the only solution for an increased service on the HOW is for somebody to come forward and pay for it.

It goes without saying that the initiative for any extra services on the HOWL is not going to come from ATW but from the the WAG who have frequently made noises about service improvement on the line. The HOWL timetable has been unchanged since privatisation and the franchise requirement was 4 trains a day with provisos such as, if I remember rightly, a train to arrive in Salop before 9am. This, of course, results in the ridiculous 0430 departure from Swansea! However, we now have a sunday service which was WAG inspired and not a franchise requirement.

I also seem to remember that when extra trains to Fishguard were first proposed there was also the usual protestations of "where's the stock going to come from?"

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by swcovas

It goes without saying that the initiative for any extra services on the HOWL is not going to come from ATW but from the the WAG who have frequently made noises about service improvement on the line. The HOWL timetable has been unchanged since privatisation and the franchise requirement was 4 trains a day with provisos such as, if I remember rightly, a train to arrive in Salop before 9am. This, of course, results in the ridiculous 0430 departure from Swansea!

It may be ridiculous, but (without setting up an expensive depot half way along the line with spare staff/DMUs) how else do you reach Shrewsbury before nine in the morning?

Make it later than 04:36 and you get complaints at the Shrewsbury end about it arriving too late for workers (like your complaints about the 05:19 southbound service not getting into Swansea before 09:00).

[Gareth Marston]

Originally Posted by tbtc

It may be ridiculous, but (without setting up an expensive depot half way along the line with spare staff/DMUs) how else do you reach Shrewsbury before nine in the morning?

Make it later than 04:36 and you get complaints at the Shrewsbury end about it arriving too late for workers (like your complaints about the 05:19 southbound service not getting into Swansea before 09:00).

Whats the point in having the line if its not of any practical wider use beyond a few leisure journeys each year?

The BR Manager who cut it from 5 trains a day to 4 as a recession money saving measure in the early 90's later admitted 50% of the passenger traffic went as well.

Sacrificing the number of through all length trains by 1 and running the early morning ecs moves to points (Llandrinod Wells/Llandovery) where they can turn around in order to arrive into Swansea/Shrewsbury in the morning peak may make more sense in increasing usage though the psychological barrier of 3 trains a day between Llandovery and Llandrinod will have to be overcome. There is no bus service that straddles the Carmathenshire/Powys border the HoW being the only public transport on this axis.

[swcovas]

Originally Posted by tbtc

It may be ridiculous, but (without setting up an expensive depot half way along the line with spare staff/DMUs) how else do you reach Shrewsbury before nine in the morning?

Make it later than 04:36 and you get complaints at the Shrewsbury end about it arriving too late for workers (like your complaints about the 05:19 southbound service not getting into Swansea before 09:00).

Yes, I agree with your points but, dismissing the franchise commitment of an arrival pre 0900 a later first arrival at say 1000/1030 would probably atract far more custom in the way of leisure/shoppers traffic to Shrewsbury. At the opposite end the first arrival at 0908 is of no great use to anyone. In pre privatisation days fisrt arrival in Swansea was at about 1015 with in late 80s an extra sat only working from Llandovery arriving at 1130 and both could be quite well loaded. And not wishing to sound naive but how costly would it be to stable overnight at Llandrindod?
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Originally Posted by Gareth Marston

Whats the point in having the line if its not of any practical wider use beyond a few leisure journeys each year?

The BR Manager who cut it from 5 trains a day to 4 as a recession money saving measure in the early 90's later admitted 50% of the passenger traffic went as well.

Sacrificing the number of through all length trains by 1 and running the early morning ecs moves to points (Llandrinod Wells/Llandovery) where they can turn around in order to arrive into Swansea/Shrewsbury in the morning peak may make more sense in increasing usage though the psychological barrier of 3 trains a day between Llandovery and Llandrinod will have to be overcome. There is no bus service that straddles the Carmathenshire/Powys border the HoW being the only public transport on this axis.

Yes, agree that some short workings could make sense but don't think reducing to 3 plus 1 short working would ever gain much support but I believe that 4 thru' plus one short could work quite well. However, the Heart of Wales line Forum and HOWLTA have always seemed to be totally opposed to any short workings!

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by Gareth Marston

Whats the point in having the line if its not of any practical wider use beyond a few leisure journeys each year?

The BR Manager who cut it from 5 trains a day to 4 as a recession money saving measure in the early 90's later admitted 50% of the passenger traffic went as well.

Sacrificing the number of through all length trains by 1 and running the early morning ecs moves to points (Llandrinod Wells/Llandovery) where they can turn around in order to arrive into Swansea/Shrewsbury in the morning peak may make more sense in increasing usage though the psychological barrier of 3 trains a day between Llandovery and Llandrinod will have to be overcome. There is no bus service that straddles the Carmathenshire/Powys border the HoW being the only public transport on this axis.

What's your alternative then? There's not much population between Swansea and Shrewsbury, there's a faster hourly alternative via Cardiff to deal with any long distance passengers.

Adding an extra round trip will require an extra unit even if it only makes one trip (since it'll take over eight hours after "break" time, so it's not like finding a unit with a spare couple of hours).

The reality is that we are talking about a line with low passenger numbers, other than some busy weekend summer trains. It's a line that is politically sensitive but most trains are pretty empty (with a significant number of passengers being pensioners on free passes).