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Old 21st September 2017, 23:52   #76
Mathew S
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The OP stated his daughter was travelling to Manchester Victoria, and that this is a journey his daughter (and he) make regularly. Even if there are no "buy before you board" posters at Adlington, they've been unavoidable at Victoria for well over a year now, and they are huge, gaudy things that no reasonable person could pretend not to have had the opportunity to read. Many Northern trains have (had?) the posters on also.

Although I'm no lawyer, I do have fairly extensive personal experience of the legal system (ahem... ) and would suggest that the above would be more than enough basis for the Northern prosecutions team to persuade a court that they'd done enough to advertise "buy before you board".

It may be unfair that not everyone who breaks the law is prosecuted for it; it may be unfair if you weren't aware that "buy before you board" is the law; but unfairness doesn't mean that an offence hasn't been committed I'm afraid.

FWIW my advice would be a firm 'pay up', and that your daughter should count herself lucky that a settlement is being offered at all.

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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:01   #77
Silver Cobra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejuggler View Post
At the opposite end of how this can pan out a colleague was submitting a complaint today after getting a hard time from a guard earlier this week and threatened for not having a ticket.

The station only has a ticket machine and it wasn't working. He was told its up to him to prove it wasn't.
I had a similar situation with regards to TVMs not working when travelling last week in GN-land between Arlesey and Stevenage. Both of the TVMs were out of service, and while Arlesey does have a part-time ticket office which would normally have been open at the time I was travelling (11:45am), the office was closed due to the staff being on holiday. I took pictures of both machines and the closed ticket office with my phone before travelling to Stevenage, where I showed the pictures to the barrier staff (they were who informed me that the Arlesey ticket office was closed due to staff holiday) and was sold an off-peak day return with no quibbles.

While it shouldn't be expected that every passenger has a smart phone or a means of taking pictures on them, maybe it's best if you can to do so, to cover any possible situations like your colleague encountered.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:07   #78
scrapy
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I held off from commenting on this as I knew it be using Adlington station so could take a proper look.

At the entrance there is signage pointing to the other platform for information and tickets. This is partially obscured by a sign directing to replacement bus stops.

The ticket office is clearly visible from the Manchester bound platform. There are no actual individual posters about buying a ticket before travel but there is a station information board which specifies tickets must be bought before travel when the ticket office is open. It also lists the ticket office opening times. However there is no legal requirement on signage as this is not a penalty fares station. There is no TVM so any comments regarding these from previous posters and what payment are accepted are irrelevant.

Northern have ticket sellers at Manchester Victoria from first train until last. They only sell tickets. They also have revenue protection inspectors who won't always be there. Only they can issue Failure to Purchase notices. Unluckily for your daughter they were there on this occasion. You cannot really complain that someone else got away with it as the inspectors travel around a bit like those caught speeding cannot complain that someone got away with it on another day when there were no checks.

Some people have suggested your daughter got charged 80 pounds however it is my understanding that the 80 pounds is only when a FTPN goes unpaid or the inspector sends a travel incident report to the prosecution's unit and they then issue the payment demand for example for a repeat offender or aggrivating factors. Can you confirm how much the FTPN was for?

May I also advise you pay whatever the amount of the FTPN at the earliest opportunity even if you don't agree and then go to your MP. If you look at similar threads you will see how these things can quickly escalate both financially and with criminal implications.

Last edited by scrapy; 22nd September 2017 at 09:11.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:25   #79
Salesy
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Out of curiosity, how did the staff at Victoria know that your daughter travelled without a ticket (apart from her telling them obviously)? Is there automatic barriers at Victoria?

What I'm getting at is, could they prove beyond reasonable doubt (taking your daughter's confession aside for the moment) that your daughter had travelled without a valid ticket?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:33   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salesy View Post
Out of curiosity, how did the staff at Victoria know that your daughter travelled without a ticket (apart from her telling them obviously)? Is there automatic barriers at Victoria?

What I'm getting at is, could they prove beyond reasonable doubt (taking your daughter's confession aside for the moment) that your daughter had travelled without a valid ticket?
From what's already been posted it states she went to the ticket kiosk before trying to exit the station through the automated barriers.
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