This was a matter of time.... Farce charge £50 penalty fares

**yorkie** · 18th May 2007, 11:21

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/york...0_bus_ride.php

What legislation supports this? the word "prosecutions" is used - what's the criminal offence? There is no penalty fare legislation that allows for £50 penalties to be charged.

ChrisCooper · 18th May 2007, 13:37

First have probably realised how much income they get from fines on the railway side, and have decided to extend it to buses aswell. £50 is a hell of a lot though, most rail penalty fares are based on twice the single price, which I would be suprised if it was more than 10% of the amount they are charging. One fine is making them the same money as probably 20 paying passengers, so it can't be said to be protecting revenue, it's very nice source of revenue. The whole idea of having ticket machines to buy tickets when you board seems daft anyway, since it doesn't solve the problem of dwell times at stops (unlike conductors, sorry "hosts", or buy before you board), yet I'd expect the average time to buy a ticket from an machine is longer than from a person (since people will be unfamiliar with how it works, putting coins in the slot takes longer than throwing them onto the cash tray, there are problems with rejected coins etc, and of cource were notes to be accepted it can be even worse due to people trying to get it to take that crumpled £5 note). Basically, you get the worst of both worlds. Then again, I can't help feeling that that's what FTR is, the worst of a tram and bus system, not the best as they would like us to think (probably the best from their point of view though).

**yorkie** · 18th May 2007, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisCooper

The whole idea of having ticket machines to buy tickets when you board seems daft anyway, since it doesn't solve the problem of dwell times at stops

It does a little but, but not totally. People who do not need to buy a ticket can simply walk past the queue and sit down (ftr newbies sometimes think that these people are "not paying" when in fact they've already paid, e.g. FarceDay ticket) but back in the days of drivers doing tickets, they had to wait behind everyone else. Also, the bus can drive off when people are queuing (as long as people can physically fit on the bus while queuing).

It's daft not to allow people on the rear set of doors - there is absolutely no logic to it, that would speed boarding even further. I guess the reason is because it's not near the ticket machine and people could give the excuse that they didn't see it? I don't know what goes through the mind of Farce management these days. I'd love to see them in court charged with multiple counts of deception, money laundering and false advertising. If only we lived in a country where the laws were designed for the benefit of the people rather than large faceless corporations.....

Jim · 18th May 2007, 17:02

I don't see it a problem. All I say is if you have a ticket, don't worry!

**yorkie** · 18th May 2007, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim

I don't see it a problem. All I say is if you have a ticket, don't worry!

about what? is that a reply to what I said about people walking past the machines who have tickets? If so, I agree totally. Farce wants people to "scan" such tickets in the reader so they can log useage, but there is no requirement to do so, as a result most people (sensibly) walk past the queue and slow down. I also know a lot of people get FirstWeek/Day tickets and make a point of deliberately just sitting down without scanning it, as a form of 'protest' at Farce's silly demands.

Jim · 18th May 2007, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkie

I also know a lot of people get FirstWeek/Day tickets and make a point of deliberately just sitting down without scanning it, as a form of 'protest' at Farce's silly demands.

It is to see usage really. But the problem is, whats to stop people doing the same with "First 10's"

Admitly, I did not read the article first!

BUT, concerning the example made by Yorkie? about FtR, then I see how it is down right daft, to say the least

**yorkie** · 18th May 2007, 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim

It is to see usage really. But the problem is, whats to stop people doing the same with "First 10's"

I guess the danger there, is someone who normally gets a weekly ticket and then gets a 10journey ticket may go into 'autopilot' and not 'validate' the ticket. They'd then be asked for £50.

Anyway the whole idea of validating is a farce, and they tell everyone to do this yet people who have FirstDays that were bought on other buses will find the ftr is unable to read them anyway, as they're not compatible. I guess it's possible some people may mistakenly think it needs to be 'validated' and stand there wondering if the machine is broken. It's bound to happen with some tourists

**Max** · 19th May 2007, 10:26

This is an absolute disgrace. The FTR is a complete and utter waste of money, and the idea of removing inspectors is crazy. Machines are so unreliable, and the fact that they can't even accept notes or cards is mad! If they want to remove the need for inspectors, they should put ticket machines at the bus-stops, and when the people get on the bus they have to put their ticket in a validation machine for a barrier to open and let them on the bus. This would remove the need for ticket inspectors on the bus, it would remove the need for silly machines on the bus, and would surely totally eradicate fare-dodging! They have a similar system to this in some German towns.

The idea of penalty fares on buses seems fairly extreme. This poor woman seems to have been unfairly singled out - we even know that she had a £5 note as the inspector didn't have enough change, and that's why he took down her name and address. Why could First then not just have proceeded to claim back the money required, as opposed to pressing totally draconian and unfounded penalties? What a disgrace

Thank god the bus companies round here have some sense, and that we still have such luxuries as £7.50 city-wide weekly tickets as opposed to £13 ones in York! When I last looked, Hull was a much bigger city than York...

Tom B · 19th May 2007, 13:33

That would never work - you CANNOT charge bus passengers if they don't have a ticket UNTIL your staff start issuing tickets every time a passenger hands over the fare. There are far too many staff who refuse to print them, with the machine being "broken" or "run out of paper".

**yorkie** · 19th May 2007, 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max

This poor woman seems to have been unfairly singled out - we even know that she had a £5 note as the inspector didn't have enough change, and that's why he took down her name and address.

It's not that the Inspector didn't have change, the issue is that they were meant to use the machine which does not accept the following legal tender: 1p, 2p, 5p, £5, £10, etc. Therefore they were not in posession of a ticket, therefore the inspector wanted £50 from them, they refused to pay so it went to a court. They could not afford proper representation, and it's a mickey mouse court that just takes Farce's word for it, so Farce won.

Change may not even be an issue with a £5 note; that's the amount for 2x Returns! But you can't do 2 returns in one transaction anyway (so £1 and £2 coins WILL NOT get you 2 returns, only one, leaving one of you with a £50 fine because Farce stole your 50p).

Farce wanted a few 'test cases' but they were selective who they went for. If they went for tourists, or well-off people, they'd have lost. So they only took students and people on very low incomes to court. They got the result they wanted, so they're very happy now.

However what they didn't budget for was the bad publicity: please spread the word, and we have to aim for Farce not to win any more contracts.

**Mojo** · 19th May 2007, 22:10

If they'd have got proper representation at court, they'd have got off, as long as the lawyer could prove:
a) They intended to pay the correct fare
b) The doors closed and the bus started moving when they got to the machine to realise they couldn't pay

£13 weekly ticket? Bargain.

Nick W · 20th May 2007, 10:19

Surely it should be first proving that they did not intend to pay, rather than this guilty until proven innocent culture we have from "penalties", which are really against the magna carta in my opinion.

**Mojo** · 20th May 2007, 11:32

It's worth pointing out that Magistrates are not trained legal people, they have minimal knowledge of the Law and as such will accept anything a solicitor says provided the Clerk can back it up. From the news story, it's clear that the only solicitor in court belonged to Farce so they got away with it.

**yorkie** · 20th May 2007, 23:27

So it was a civil court, and a mickey mouse one at that?

I have very little confidence in our legal system these days and I can see why so many people are also not confident in it.

The big wigs love big business, they seem to hate the people.

The fact that some of them don't even know the law is worrying, I didn't realise it was that bad.

Perhaps if enough people up and down the country got together, we could sue Farce for false advertising, obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception, incompetence and discrimination against selected customers? I'd pay a fiver and I am sure you'd get thousands of people who would. Even if we didn't win, it'd be great to see them in the dock.

Nick W · 21st May 2007, 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkie

Perhaps if enough people up and down the country got together, we could sue Farce for false advertising, obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception, incompetence and discrimination against selected customers? I'd pay a fiver and I am sure you'd get thousands of people who would. Even if we didn't win, it'd be great to see them in the dock.

Then fares on chings would just rise further

18th May 2007, 11:21	#1
yorkie Fares Advisor Administrator Join Date: 6 Jun 2005 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 20,764	This was a matter of time.... Farce charge £50 penalty fares http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/york...0_bus_ride.php What legislation supports this? the word "prosecutions" is used - what's the criminal offence? There is no penalty fare legislation that allows for £50 penalties to be charged. Last edited by yorkie; 18th May 2007 at 11:23.

18th May 2007, 13:37	#2
ChrisCooper Established Member Join Date: 7 Sep 2005 Location: Loughborough Posts: 1,787	First have probably realised how much income they get from fines on the railway side, and have decided to extend it to buses aswell. £50 is a hell of a lot though, most rail penalty fares are based on twice the single price, which I would be suprised if it was more than 10% of the amount they are charging. One fine is making them the same money as probably 20 paying passengers, so it can't be said to be protecting revenue, it's very nice source of revenue. The whole idea of having ticket machines to buy tickets when you board seems daft anyway, since it doesn't solve the problem of dwell times at stops (unlike conductors, sorry "hosts", or buy before you board), yet I'd expect the average time to buy a ticket from an machine is longer than from a person (since people will be unfamiliar with how it works, putting coins in the slot takes longer than throwing them onto the cash tray, there are problems with rejected coins etc, and of cource were notes to be accepted it can be even worse due to people trying to get it to take that crumpled £5 note). Basically, you get the worst of both worlds. Then again, I can't help feeling that that's what FTR is, the worst of a tram and bus system, not the best as they would like us to think (probably the best from their point of view though). __________________ My Fotopic site \| My BVE screenshots site: \| My Youtube site

18th May 2007, 17:02	#4
Jim Established Member Join Date: 11 Jun 2005 Location: Trowbridge Posts: 3,125	I don't see it a problem. All I say is if you have a ticket, don't worry! __________________ Jim

19th May 2007, 13:33	#9
Tom B Lord High Executioner Established Member Join Date: 27 Jul 2005 Location: Edinburgh/Doncaster Posts: 3,889	That would never work - you CANNOT charge bus passengers if they don't have a ticket UNTIL your staff start issuing tickets every time a passenger hands over the fare. There are far too many staff who refuse to print them, with the machine being "broken" or "run out of paper". __________________ Tom B

19th May 2007, 22:10	#11
Mojo Muffin head Administrator Join Date: 7 Aug 2005 Location: London W12 Posts: 11,520	If they'd have got proper representation at court, they'd have got off, as long as the lawyer could prove: a) They intended to pay the correct fare b) The doors closed and the bus started moving when they got to the machine to realise they couldn't pay £13 weekly ticket? Bargain. __________________ "Could you provide a sauce please?"

19th May 2007, 10:26	#8
Max Admaxistrator Administrator Join Date: 8 Jun 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 4,336	This is an absolute disgrace. The FTR is a complete and utter waste of money, and the idea of removing inspectors is crazy. Machines are so unreliable, and the fact that they can't even accept notes or cards is mad! If they want to remove the need for inspectors, they should put ticket machines at the bus-stops, and when the people get on the bus they have to put their ticket in a validation machine for a barrier to open and let them on the bus. This would remove the need for ticket inspectors on the bus, it would remove the need for silly machines on the bus, and would surely totally eradicate fare-dodging! They have a similar system to this in some German towns. The idea of penalty fares on buses seems fairly extreme. This poor woman seems to have been unfairly singled out - we even know that she had a £5 note as the inspector didn't have enough change, and that's why he took down her name and address. Why could First then not just have proceeded to claim back the money required, as opposed to pressing totally draconian and unfounded penalties? What a disgrace Thank god the bus companies round here have some sense, and that we still have such luxuries as £7.50 city-wide weekly tickets as opposed to £13 ones in York! When I last looked, Hull was a much bigger city than York...

20th May 2007, 10:19	#12
Nick W Established Member Join Date: 5 Nov 2005 Location: Cambridge Posts: 1,347	Surely it should be first proving that they did not intend to pay, rather than this guilty until proven innocent culture we have from "penalties", which are really against the magna carta in my opinion.

20th May 2007, 11:32	#13
Mojo Muffin head Administrator Join Date: 7 Aug 2005 Location: London W12 Posts: 11,520	It's worth pointing out that Magistrates are not trained legal people, they have minimal knowledge of the Law and as such will accept anything a solicitor says provided the Clerk can back it up. From the news story, it's clear that the only solicitor in court belonged to Farce so they got away with it. __________________ "Could you provide a sauce please?"

20th May 2007, 23:27	#14
yorkie Fares Advisor Administrator Join Date: 6 Jun 2005 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 20,764	So it was a civil court, and a mickey mouse one at that? I have very little confidence in our legal system these days and I can see why so many people are also not confident in it. The big wigs love big business, they seem to hate the people. The fact that some of them don't even know the law is worrying, I didn't realise it was that bad. Perhaps if enough people up and down the country got together, we could sue Farce for false advertising, obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception, incompetence and discrimination against selected customers? I'd pay a fiver and I am sure you'd get thousands of people who would. Even if we didn't win, it'd be great to see them in the dock.