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Old 20th July 2017, 10:41   #121
Bletchleyite
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Interesting that the Porterbrook video does not propose air-conditioning.
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Old 20th July 2017, 10:46   #122
jcollins
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Originally Posted by Bletchleyite View Post
Interesting that the Porterbrook video does not propose air-conditioning.
Perhaps fitting air conditioning would affect performance on the sections where there are no overheads?
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Old 20th July 2017, 11:57   #123
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So this is being hailed by some news outlets as an increase in capacity for W&B, yet these 5 extra trains will be used essentially as cover whilst presumably the equivalent number of 158s and/or 150/2s are away for mods. So no increase in capacity overall then.
That depends where the 769s are used. Five 769s could cover either 3 or 4 diagrams; for the purpose of this discussion I will assume four. If ATW can find 4 diagrams which are doubled-up 150s all day, and put the 769s on those diagrams, that is eight 150s released. Four of those 150s will be needed for the Halton curve service (assuming Wales & Borders is the operator which seems likely), with two of the remaining four sent for PRM mods and a third releasing a 158. That leaves a single 150 for extra capacity.

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Originally Posted by gareth950 View Post
Note also that the article says at the end that this is expected to allow the 'majority' of the W&B fleet to be compliant by 2020.
Presumably this means Pacers are going by 31/12/2019.
The ATW fleet if I recall correctly will be 133 trains (3x 67+DVT, 27x 175, 24x 158, 8x 153, 36x 150 and 30x Pacers, plus the five 769s). Half of that is 66.5; Adding the Pacers, LHCS and 153s together gives 41 trains not-compliant by 2020. That is therefore, as they say, a majority of the fleet compliant but presumably we won't know what will be done about the remaining non-compliant trains until the Operator and Development Partner of the new franchise is announced.

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Originally Posted by Gareth Marston View Post
Given there's just 5 of them it seems to make sense to have a reciprocal maintenance agreement with Arriva Northern, so my guess is they'll do most of the Manchester Airport- N Wales diagrams so chance for pan up between Airport and ??? You probably wont see 158's off the Holyhead-Birmingham-Cambrian circuit and they'll be more 175's floating around West Wales.
The problem with using the ATW 769s in the north of the franchise is that (apart from the ETCS-only Cambrian-Birmingham-Holyhead curcuit) nothing runs doubled up in the north. Each 769 would release only one unit, meaning perhaps two 175s and two 150s available for an internal cascade. That would cover the three units away for PRM requirements and one for extra capacity, but not the Halton curve service if Wales & Borders ends up operating that as I assume will be the case.

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Originally Posted by notlob.divad View Post
In the article it says they will replace pairs of sprinters/pacers, probably on the valley lines. I am not sure how much of that is given by the person being interviewed and how much is speculation on behalf of the reporter.
As noted above, if they aren't used on current 4-car Sprinter diagrams they won't release enough units.

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Originally Posted by Muzer View Post
It's interesting, presumably if/when the Welsh Valleys electrification happens (is that still nominally going ahead?), they can just remove the diesel engines and convert them back to vanilla 319s!
Even when the ValleyLines are electrified, the Cardiff to Cheltenham Spa and Hereford routes won't be. The sensible thing to do, I would think, would be to obtain 379s/377s/387s in a cascade, reduce them to 3-car for Maesteg etc. off-peak (doubling to form 6-car trains on the 6-car Valleys routes in the peaks) and cascade the 769s (after a refurbishment to outer-suburban standards) onto the Swanline stopper (extended to Cheltenham Spa) and Cardiff-Hereford local stoppers.

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Originally Posted by Gareth Marston View Post
ATW have 24 158's and 36 150's so 5 769's sound about right for 2 158's and 3 150's being modified at any one time.

Assuming they go and play on Valleys Lines they can in theory free 5 diagrams up that are currently 150/Pacer combos. 3 150's to mods and 2 to cover 158's being modified. You then have 5 Pacers to strengthen other services in addition to the 769 diagrams having more capacity.
Five 769s covering five diagrams! Isn't that rather risky, leaving no time to maintain the units?

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Originally Posted by LNW-GW Joint View Post
It also says they will be available "until at least 2021", so the initial leasing deal is essentially only for 3 years.
Interesting, that's a shorter lease than I thought would be permitted given the investment the ROSCO needs to make in modifying the 319s to become 769s. I hope a similarly short lease can be obtained for the modified 150s to allow them to go off-lease once the ValleyLines are electrified.

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Originally Posted by tbtc View Post
You'd need over thirty to fill all diagrams through Queen Street, so there's plenty scope to increase the initial batch beyond five if they are a success (given that there are 86x319s out there).
As far as longer term plans are concerned, especially given the PRM work now to be done on the 150s, I personally think the ValleyLines fleet until electrification should consist of around 20 class 769s and most of the ATW class 150/2s. The 769s would allow the Pacers to leave the franchise and the 153s to be moved off the ValleyLines at least if not off-lease also.

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Originally Posted by 8H View Post
the critical points are a route from Merseyside to Chester and North Wales as least as quick as the car, and/or tempting by fare price and attractive by frequency. Not convinced by Halton curve route on any of these criterion But I do hope it succeeds.
The Chester-Liverpool (Lime Street) journey time via the Halton curve is probably going to be about the same as via Mersyrail I think.

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Originally Posted by snowball View Post
Maliphant depot, Swansea.
Not sure the OHLE is actually live there yet, although largely installed I think some of the parts at the top of the masts are still at 90 degrees to where they should be.

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Originally Posted by berneyarms View Post
It's a single pool of 158s - there's none based at Canton as such - they all are based at Machynlleth.

A 158 does three days in South Wales, coming down from Shrewsbury on the first train of the day, does the tour of South Wales for three days before heading back up the Marches and eventually back to Machynlleth.
Do the 158s actually spend four (or more) days in south Wales, with the extra day(s) being spent on Canton depot having maintenance done that can't be done in Machynlleth? I assume one of the reasons they come down south is to visit Canton.

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Originally Posted by craigybagel View Post
Plenty of doubled up 150s running around
Are they diagrammed to run in pairs, all day, rather than just in the peaks and used elsewhere off-peak?

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Originally Posted by Bletchleyite View Post
I think the 2-car DMU has had its day[1], demand is just too high for them in most places now. 3-car is the realistic minimum for everything other than small branches.

[1] This is why I think Northern were fools for ordering new 2-car sets which will just end up running around as non-gangwayed pairs.
This is why I think it might be a good idea to use the 175/0s to improve frequencies on the Heart Of Wales (5 diagrams, I think) and Conwy Valley (2 diagrams, every two hours service); they are simply too short for the regional express services the design is otherwise best-suited for. I think Northern might have been ok ordering 2-car DMUs if only they had specified unit-end gangways. As it is, I agree that the Northern CAF orders were foolish.

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Originally Posted by edwin_m View Post
Ebbw Vale sounds like a good route for the 769s in Wales, being relatively self-contained and from what I hear requiring at least 4 cars for most of the time. They could probably use 25kV on the main line section once it is finished.
It might well require 4-car units, but unless 4-cars are already diagrammed putting the 769s on that line is not going to release enough units.
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Old 20th July 2017, 12:16   #124
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The 769s aren't just about releasing units, they're about upping capacity.
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Old 20th July 2017, 14:31   #125
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Originally Posted by Bletchleyite View Post
The 769s aren't just about releasing units, they're about upping capacity.
Exactly. People are suggesting they could be used here, there and everywhere, some of them amounting to carrying fresh air around. All 4 cars must be filled to justify their existence in respect to alleviating overcrowding. The Cardiff Valleys is the best place to utilise them to the full.
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Old 20th July 2017, 15:01   #126
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Originally Posted by Rhydgaled View Post
Do the 158s actually spend four (or more) days in south Wales, with the extra day(s) being spent on Canton depot having maintenance done that can't be done in Machynlleth? I assume one of the reasons they come down south is to visit Canton.
No they don't - they come down on day 1 and return on day 3.

They are maintained at Machynlleth and not at Canton.

They come down south presumably to facilitate trains actually being operated, and to add capacity on certain services over what a 150 could do - there aren't enough units to cover everything.
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Old 20th July 2017, 15:06   #127
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Originally Posted by berneyarms View Post
No they don't - they come down on day 1 and return on day 3.

They are maintained at Machynlleth and not at Canton.

They come down south presumably to facilitate trains actually being operated, and to add capacity on certain services over what a 150 could do - there aren't enough units to cover everything.
They come down to be able to provide a 158 on Rhydgaled's pet Fishguard boats as considered 150 unsuitable
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Old 20th July 2017, 15:06   #128
Bletchleyite
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Originally Posted by PHILIPE View Post
Exactly. People are suggesting they could be used here, there and everywhere, some of them amounting to carrying fresh air around. All 4 cars must be filled to justify their existence in respect to alleviating overcrowding. The Cardiff Valleys is the best place to utilise them to the full.
Indeed, and they'll work well as progressive electrification takes place.
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Old 20th July 2017, 20:09   #129
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Originally Posted by Bletchleyite View Post
Indeed, and they'll work well as progressive electrification [of the Valley lines] takes place.
Only if heavy rail 25kV overhead electrification is chosen for the Valleys. If light rail is chosen it's difficult to see how the 319's/769's could run under electric power on the Valleys.

If heavy rail electrification is chosen, these units could then stay on the valleys until new EMUs can be delievered and run under electricity in the Valleys, then if electrification stops at Cardiff Queen St or Central, continue to Penarth, Barry and Vale of Glamorgan under diesel, continuing the through joined up service have now. Hopefully the ODP will realise it makes sense to electrify the Vale lines as well, although following today's announcements, who knows.
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Old 20th July 2017, 21:22   #130
Rhydgaled
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No they don't - they come down on day 1 and return on day 3.

They are maintained at Machynlleth and not at Canton.
I know they are all based at Machynlleth, but I assumed that being a small shed it would not be possible to perform certain aspects of maintenance there. Thus, I expected they would have to cycle them through Canton to do some of the heavier maintenance work.

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Originally Posted by PHILIPE View Post
They come down to be able to provide a 158 on Rhydgaled's pet Fishguard boats as considered 150 unsuitable
I consider class 150s to be unsuitable for any journey over an hour; and also unsuitable for any journey that doesn't have frequent stops. I do however recognise that the current franchise hasn't got enough decent trains for them to fully comply with that, so my anger is directed at their use on the Fishguard boat train in particular because:
a. it is in my area and
b. it is the fastest, most-premier*, service in the franchise not to have 158s, 175s or mark 3s on it on a fairly reliable basis

* it used to be considered important enough to be run using an intercity 125 through to London for heaven's sake
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Old 20th July 2017, 22:03   #131
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* it used to be considered important enough to be run using an intercity 125 through to London for heaven's sake
Large amounts of people used to travel that way from Ireland to London. Times change. Even with 150s the Fishguard branch is still doing a lot better than the public transport network into its Irish counterpart in Rosslare.
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Old 21st July 2017, 07:00   #132
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I have no doubt that the Halton Curve will succeed. With the new bridge at Widnes-Runcorn due to open soon, the old bridge to close for re-furbishment and £2 toll to be introduced a new rail service for Helsby and Frodsham area commuters should be a winner.
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Old 21st July 2017, 09:39   #133
Rhydgaled
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Originally Posted by craigybagel View Post
Large amounts of people used to travel that way from Ireland to London. Times change. Even with 150s the Fishguard branch is still doing a lot better than the public transport network into its Irish counterpart in Rosslare.
Yes, demand has fallen but that only justifies reducing the length of the train, not the quality of it. The Fishguard-Cardiff 'boat train' service is still a long-distance limited-stop express and a 150 is designed for short-distance all-stops work, totally unsuited for what the service is. I'm not too annoyed as long as the service is booked for a 158, it is just a shame how difficult it seems to be to get the south Wales 158s into the right places to work their booked diagrams.

Last edited by Rhydgaled; 21st July 2017 at 09:41.
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