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Old 18th February 2017, 23:04   #256
Teflon Lettuce
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Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo View Post
To be honest, the Penzance to Lands End is relatively decent with First 1. Between Lands End and St Ives, most of the route is covered by a mix of different services 16/16A and community bus 7 with some roads not served year round.

However, still got to say it is very tourist orientated (though a cracking run)
yet another victim of First's "network" reviews then... when I was last that way the 300 was the main service (IIRC ran 3 times daily as a through route all year round with shorts between St Ives and Zennor... with a one vehicle supplementary service overlaid in summer)
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Old 18th February 2017, 23:11   #257
radamfi
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Now lets get one thing clear... London isn't a fair comparison with, say, St Albans... or Lincolnshire... or the outer Hebrides

Try, for once, comparing like for like... look at route density/ frequency in West Midlands, or Liverpool, or Manchester, or Glasgow, or Newcastle... ALL deregulated environments with good route density' frequency... now you'll note they are all our bigger cities... and they are the ones that have the LEAST interference from the respective ita's... so where in hell do you think throwing billions of pounds away in those areas you would make any beneficial difference to the services by giving control to politicians?
If you note, I took great care in using "suburban" London as my example, as that is the most comparable place available. It would have been nice if there was somewhere else in Britain that I could use, but London is the only place in the UK where citywide network tendering exists. Uxbridge and St Albans might be reasonably comparable though as they are roughly equidistant from central London. St Albans arguably has a better train service. I suspect bus use in Uxbridge is somewhat higher!

But if you want to look at the big cities you mention, those are precisely the places that have lost the most patronage since deregulation. Cities of those sizes in, say Germany, would have very well organised and integrated bus/tram/metro networks.
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Old 18th February 2017, 23:36   #258
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If you note, I took great care in using "suburban" London as my example, as that is the most comparable place available. It would have been nice if there was somewhere else in Britain that I could use, but London is the only place in the UK where citywide network tendering exists. Uxbridge and St Albans might be reasonably comparable though as they are roughly equidistant from central London. St Albans arguably has a better train service. I suspect bus use in Uxbridge is somewhat higher!

But if you want to look at the big cities you mention, those are precisely the places that have lost the most patronage since deregulation. Cities of those sizes in, say Germany, would have very well organised and integrated bus/tram/metro networks.
I see so you lose the argument so you change the argument... your argument was that giving control to politicians would improve services with better coverage/ frequency.... I point you to places with comparable population density (therefore providing a like for like comparison) suddenly... of course in those areas comparable services are being provided at lower cost in the deregulated environment free of political interference... so suddenly you are talking about passenger numbers... well... here's a simple fact of life... if there wasn't the passenger usage to support the services do you think that Stagecoach First Arriva et al would be running those services?

seeing as though I have blown your argument out of the water at this point I refer you back to my post #246
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Old 18th February 2017, 23:54   #259
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Eh? Surely patronage is what counts? Bus mileage shot up after deregulation despite huge numbers of passengers being lost. Despite the loss in passengers, the government claimed that the increased mileage meant that deregulation was a success.

Some of the most widely respected and heavily used public transport networks have quite a sparse network. For example, if you look at the Zurich network, there's only about 30 or so routes in a place the size of Bristol. But because of the high level of integration and good reliability, patronage is very high. Zurich is widely recognised as one of the world's best transport networks.

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Old 19th February 2017, 00:19   #260
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Eh? Surely patronage is what counts? Bus mileage shot up after deregulation despite huge numbers of passengers being lost. Despite the loss in passengers, the government claimed that the increased mileage meant that deregulation was a success.

Some of the most widely respected and heavily used public transport networks have quite a sparse network. For example, if you look at the Zurich network, there's only about 30 or so routes in a place the size of Bristol. But because of the high level of integration and good reliability, patronage is very high. Zurich is widely recognised as one of the world's best transport networks.
oh for Gods sake... what is the point of having any discussion with you... you blatently ignore ANYTHING that contradicts your world view...but here goes...

YES mileage shot up after dereg (something to do with 3000 minibuses perhaps)

YES patronage is what counts... but up until now you have been arguing that your blinkered ideas will increase the PROVISION.... strange how you now want to argue that provision will lead to patronage.... especially seeing as though you have just stated that provision shot up at deregulation but your contention is that dereg is a failure because patronage plummetted.... just what IS it you are arguing? no don't answer that....

the FACT is PROVISION is comparable in Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Glasgow, Newcastle et al as it is in SUBURBAN London... you argued it is worse... it blatently isn't.... then you say oh but it's patronage that counts... well I argue that no self respecting highly profitable operator such as Stagecoach, Go Ahead Arriva or First would provide the PROVISION if there wasn't the PATRONAGE for them to make a PROFIT out of doing so... it's called sound business economics!

FACT when given similar operating conditions a deregulated environment gives the same provision as a regulated environment AT MUCH LOWER COST

NOW at this point I will say one last time... this thread is about the effects of the ENCTS... stick to the subject in hand... IF you want a debate about regulation v dereg then open a thread on the subject. If you continue to try hijacking this thread for your hobby horse I will have no other recourse than to put a complaint into the modulators!
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Old 19th February 2017, 09:50   #261
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the problem with tourist routes is there is no clear definition of what constitutes a tourist route...
Agreed.

Arriva used to run a Summer weekend services between Liverpool South Parkway and Speke Hall with no intermediate calling points. If Merseytravel argued that was a tourist route it would be difficult to object.

However, there is a route which runs 363 days a year between Manchester Airport viewing park, Manchester Airport station and Quarry Bank Mill. If the route terminated at Quarry Bank Mill you could argue that was a tourist route but it continues to the village of Styal (which has very few trains stopping there) and Wilmslow so the route as it is couldn't really be defined as a tourist route.
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Old 19th February 2017, 09:57   #262
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Cornwall Council were quoted in this article as telling the newspaper that it would be 'ILLEGAL' for them to reimburse in future
You didn't say before so it sounded like your argument was that it's illegal for them to fund the use of ENCTS passes on services which they weren't required to, so if the open top tour allowed ENCTS passes one year it was a route they legally had to accept ENCTS on.
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Old 19th February 2017, 19:19   #263
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yet another victim of First's "network" reviews then... when I was last that way the 300 was the main service (IIRC ran 3 times daily as a through route all year round with shorts between St Ives and Zennor... with a one vehicle supplementary service overlaid in summer)
When was that? I did have a check in one of the Great British Bus Timetable from early 2000 and it had reference to a summer only 15 from St Ives and Lands End
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Old 19th February 2017, 19:23   #264
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When was that? I did have a check in one of the Great British Bus Timetable from early 2000 and it had reference to a summer only 15 from St Ives and Lands End
1999... did say it was a long time ago.. and it may not have been numbered 300 at the time... but there was DEFINITELY a through service St Ives-Zennor- Sennen Cove- Lands End that ran throughout the year with open toppers in summer
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Old 19th February 2017, 19:25   #265
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1999... did say it was a long time ago.. and it may not have been numbered 300 at the time... but there was DEFINITELY a through service St Ives-Zennor- Sennen Cove- Lands End that ran throughout the year with open toppers in summer
Wonder if that might have been the last hurrah? That said, the GBBTT did have the odd issue
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Old 19th February 2017, 20:16   #266
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However, there is a route which runs 363 days a year between Manchester Airport viewing park, Manchester Airport station and Quarry Bank Mill. If the route terminated at Quarry Bank Mill you could argue that was a tourist route but it continues to the village of Styal (which has very few trains stopping there) and Wilmslow so the route as it is couldn't really be defined as a tourist route.
I take it that you refer to the service 200. That service serves a large part of the Lacey Green in Wilmslow that has no other bus service and it also stops at the Styal women's prison.
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