[sb123]

Hello!

I bought a ticket which is valid from:
Ilford to Chessington South

It cost me £6.60, and on the ticket it says:
'Any Route Permitted'

What does this mean? As I went from:
Ilford - Waterloo - Surbiton - Chessington South

Instead of going from:
Ilford - Waterloo - Chessington South

At Surbiton, 4 Fare-Evasion Officers 'ganged up' on me, and I feel I was treated extremely unfairly. I asked for his name which he refused but wanted me to fill out some book for fare evasion.

How can it be classed as 'Fare Evasion' when it would cost no more that what I paid going the route I did, and on the ticket it does say 'Any Route Permitted'

Can anyone help me out here please? Should I have to pay £20-00

Thanks
Stephen

[yorkie]

An RPI (Tom C on here) told me you cannot be penalty fared for being off-route.

I think you were off-route, as although it is reasonable to want to go via Surbiton to get to Chessington South for the bus (I know - I've done it myself via the bus and the direct train having stayed there a few days!), it is not a valid route to get to Chessington South.

The fare is the same.

I think the correct action is to give you an excess, which in this case is £0.00.

You should move "oop north", here you'd just say to the friendly guard "I missed the train to ABC, I know the fare to XYZ is the same price, can you give me a zero excess?" to which the guard would say "Don't worry about it mate" and wave you on and everyone would be happy.

The really odd thing is that the fares in the travelcard area are PRICED zonally but are issued to a specific station rather than a specific zone. If they were priced zonally like on LU you'd have had no problems.

[sb123]

Thanks Yorkie!

I really really appreicte your help with this.

I wish they were like that down here... I didn't even realise I had done something wrong until my ticket wouldn't work!

Showed it to the guard who then ripped it up and saying just two words. 'Not Valid, Not Valid.' I asked for the ticket back or for him to let me through the gate, but he wouldn't.

Then he called over another guy, who said it wasn't valid, but I told him how the Waterloo staff said it was alright.

But he pointed at the map, at the 'massive' distance between Surbiton and Chessington South. It's only a 13 min Bus Journey so I told him he was having a laugh.

Then I realised I have 4 of them around me.

I asked for their names to make a complaint, which they covered up, and he now insisted I filled out some book. He said if I made a complaint it would end up with me having to pay more as they would use their CCTV systems to show how I was wasting their time. It did not need 4 of them though.

I said I needed to use the toilets, so he walked me downstairs and I had to find another way out.

Was really upset, about this as I'm only 16, and didn't really need this sort of abusive behavoir towards me before work.

Thanks very much for your support though.

[will1337]

£6.60 is a lot for that journey, a Z1-6 child travelcard is cheaper and Chessington South is in Zone 6.
Edit: Oops, 30p more.

[sb123]

Yeah, it's very similar.

But I believe a Return Ticket to Surbiton is also £6.60 the same price as a Return Ticket to Chessington South.

[will1337]

You'd obviously have the flexibility of extra journeys and no problems with RPIs I guess though. Oddly enough, buying a child zone 1-6 off peak for my brother recently an SWT machine charged £3.50 for the ticket instead of £2.

[yorkie]

Originally Posted by sb123

Thanks Yorkie!

I really really appreicte your help with this.

You're welcome!

Originally Posted by sb123

I wish they were like that down here... I didn't even realise I had done something wrong until my ticket wouldn't work!

Showed it to the guard who then ripped it up and saying just two words. 'Not Valid, Not Valid.' I asked for the ticket back or for him to let me through the gate, but he wouldn't.

Remember this: they can take your ticket off you BUT THEY MUST GIVE YOU A RECEIPT.

Originally Posted by sb123

Then he called over another guy, who said it wasn't valid, but I told him how the Waterloo staff said it was alright.

Interesting. I am not sure what the official rule is, but I would have thought the Waterloo staff should have advised you an excess would be required (which is £0.00) and issued that.

Originally Posted by sb123

But he pointed at the map, at the 'massive' distance between Surbiton and Chessington South. It's only a 13 min Bus Journey so I told him he was having a laugh.

Then I realised I have 4 of them around me.

I think what he is saying is that it is not a permitted route - although he should be using the Routeing Guide maps to 'prove' that, and not any old map.

Originally Posted by sb123

I asked for their names to make a complaint, which they covered up, and he now insisted I filled out some book. He said if I made a complaint it would end up with me having to pay more as they would use their CCTV systems to show how I was wasting their time. It did not need 4 of them though.

Pretty sure they are not allowed to hide their names but I'm sure someone else can confirm...

Originally Posted by sb123

I said I needed to use the toilets, so he walked me downstairs and I had to find another way out.

Was really upset, about this as I'm only 16, and didn't really need this sort of abusive behavoir towards me before work.

Thanks very much for your support though.

Glad you got away from them! Sadly though they won't change their attitude - they need challenging and told that their behaviour is not acceptable, but I realise that would be very daunting when there is only one of you and you are unsure of the rules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Originally Posted by will1337

You'd obviously have the flexibility of extra journeys and no problems with RPIs I guess though. Oddly enough, buying a child zone 1-6 off peak for my brother recently an SWT machine charged £3.50 for the ticket instead of £2.

Then don't put any cash in the machine and find another machine! If there is no alternative then just say you only had £2 and pay on the train.

I'd also write and complain. Not that £1.50 is a lot, but out of principle they should not be overcharging. It's a shame we can't 'penalty fare' them when they overcharge us

[sb123]

Yeah!

I always get the travelcards, especially at the weekend as they are £2.00

The machines were showing half price of an Adult ticket for children which is the wrong fare. Apparantly they flashed all the machines incorrectly, so I got my tickets from the desk.

But yeah they gave me a return ticket that day and said it wasn't a problem as it covered all the zones, so I won't be fined whatever route I go.

But I see that isn't the case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That £3.50 was the off-peak child fare, which was charging people incorrectly for weeks.

Look how much money they would have made from that.

An extra £1.50 per child.

They gave me no receipt for my ticket, and he did just use a standard rail and underground map.

Are they receiving commission for the amount of fines they process?

I believe they don't work direct for the train companies either... are they a separate company?

I would make a complaint but I am too scared because of the things he said to me that day... and that I got away without paying, they might find something to get even more money off me because of this.

[yorkie]

Check your PMs.

[sb123]

Thanks =)

Replied to it.

Are child tickets on the Underground upto 16 years old? I have an Oyster card which expires in Sept 08, but they always issue me with Child Tickets without me having to ask

[Daniel]

If your 16 you can't get child fares on National Rail. My Child Oyster expires 30th Sept 08, and I am 16 - it should be valid until you leave full time education, (so 30th Sept is the next educational year, which for me would be Year 12 - non-mandatory).

On Transport for London services, (Tube, DLR etc), you can get a child rate ticket with your oyster card.

However, on National Rail, if your 16 or over, a child ticket isn't valid for you =]

[yorkie]

Originally Posted by Daniel

If your 16 you can't get child fares on National Rail. My Child Oyster expires 30th Sept 08, and I am 16 - it should be valid until you leave full time education, (so 30th Sept is the next educational year, which for me would be Year 12 - non-mandatory).

On Transport for London services, (Tube, DLR etc), you can get a child rate ticket with your oyster card.

However, on National Rail, if your 16 or over, a child ticket isn't valid for you =]

I thought the rule was that you can if it is wholly within the london zonal area?

I know for a fact members of this forum have had travelcards when aged 16/17 in conjunction with Child rate Oysters! Was that wrong?

[djw1981]

They have to legally give you the name on their name badge which is the name by which they want to be known at work. They do not have to give you their real name.

[hairyhandedfool]

As far as I am aware, the ticket is not valid via Surbiton and therefore you were travelling without a valid ticket in a penalty fare zone. This is grounds for a penalty fare to be issued.

The RPIs MUST give you their name as it appears on their name badge when they issue a penalty fare.

You have 21 days to appeal against it and if you state they did not give you a name, on top of the other details, they should accept your appeal. SWT do not run the appeals process.

[Mojo]

Others above are correct with regards to identification. From the Penalty Fares Rules: -
"Each authorised collector must carry, and produce if asked, identification which proves that he or she is authorised to collect penalty fares on behalf of a specific operator or operators...Authorised collectors must allow passengers to make a note of the relevant details of their identification and authority." [5.4]

I have to disagree with the above poster, however. From the Policy document, it is made clear that instructions to authorised collectors must make clear that a Penalty Fare can not be charged to "a passenger who has a ticket for the journey they are making, but who is using a route on which their ticket is not valid." [4.29] Instead an excess may be paid in line with the National Conditions of Carriage.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/