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Old 21st July 2008, 21:08   #1
43106
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Default Working Timetable Data

For over 20 years, I have given myself the task of re-designing certain parts of the current Passenger Timetable (PTT) to "Clockface" timing, and increasing the frequency of services. I've confined myself to what approximates to the "InterCity" network. In modern parlance, this means Tables 26 (NatExpress East Coast, Hull Trains, GCR), 51- Cross Country (except for short distance stuff, like Nottingham - Cardiff), 53 (ex-Midland MainLine), 65 (Virgin West Coast) and 125, 126 & 135 (Long Distance Great Western).

I've come up with a load of ideas & suggestions, but every single one of them fall down on their duffs because I am missing vital data, which I can only get from a Working Timetable (WTT).

The actual data I'm after is timing information. Mostly, it's the time when a train passes through a station (without stopping), or an important junction (e.g. Marshgate, Temple Hirst, South Kirby - there are many others) or where a line reduces from a double to a single (e.g. Perth - Inverness in several places, the Menai Bridge). I have actually timed many journeys between Kings Cross and Edinburgh, but actual timings compared to planned timings are 2 different stories.

Is there anyone out there that can help? Could someone lift WTT data without putting themselves at risk? I am well aware that the WTT is classified (by NR) as a 'confidential' document, not for the eyes of the Great Unwashed Joe Public. However, the information I'm after pertains to services that are already advertised in the PTT. The WTT actually gives slightly more accurate timings than those in the PTT, usually arriving earlier and leaving later than advertised. I also managed to lift some stuff off the NR web-site, such as "Rules of the Route". There was other material that was available to potential contract bidders, but that vanished before I could download it.

If anyone is interested in discussing improving the timetable, or having a laugh at my ideas, let me know!

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Old 21st July 2008, 21:36   #2
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Old 21st July 2008, 22:05   #3
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see your pms.
I'd love to Alex, but as THIS post is only my 2nd, I can't read it. I've got to post another 3 times after this BEFORE I can. It's not me, it's the forum rules. Sorry, but it should still be there when number 5 goes up!

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Old 21st July 2008, 23:04   #4
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Have a look at the Network Rail site for something called 'Rules of Route Plan' or something similar, gives you information on Headways, timing points and Station Dwell times and other useful information. It's in the Public Publication so it's perfectly legal.
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Old 22nd July 2008, 00:01   #5
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Have a look at the Network Rail site for something called 'Rules of Route Plan' or something similar, gives you information on Headways, timing points and Station Dwell times and other useful information. It's in the Public Publication so it's perfectly legal.
This is the data I referred to earlier - I called it 'Rules of the Route', but it's the same thing. It does give a lot of info, such as Dwell Times for different types of train, but I couldn't find any data on timings. As an example, between two adjacent stations (e.g. Macclesfield & Congleton), I'd like to know the time of travel between the two if they stopped at none, one or both stations in both directions. This would be different for different stock (e.g. Voyager or Pendolino). Am I making sense, or do you want a better explanation?
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Old 22nd July 2008, 23:09   #6
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I think your after Sectional Running Times which are confidential again and not generally available as they are all in the programs which are used to plan the timetable. I think but would need to find out whether Network Rail is responsible for this information as I don't think it is the TOCs or FOCs.

I hope this helps.
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Old 22nd July 2008, 23:32   #7
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Default Sectional Running Times

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Originally Posted by MKempster View Post
I think your after Sectional Running Times which are confidential again and not generally available as they are all in the programs which are used to plan the timetable. I think but would need to find out whether Network Rail is responsible for this information as I don't think it is the TOCs or FOCs.

I hope this helps.
Thanks for that Mr. Kempster - Sectional Running Times ARE available (to some degree) AND NR is responsible for them, but, as a non-railway professional, a lot of it goes over my head. There's a family of documents called "Rules of the Plan" available on the NR site - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse/...otp8/ln08p.pdf probably covers the area where you live. I couldn't get it to open, so go to the NR site, type in "Rules of the Plan" (including quotes) into the Search box, click on 'Search' and VOILA! If it doesn't open, send me a P.M. and I can send the actual .pdf file via conventional e-mail. I managed to download ALL of the NR area some months ago.

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Old 22nd July 2008, 23:41   #8
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Originally Posted by 43106 View Post
This is the data I referred to earlier - I called it 'Rules of the Route', but it's the same thing. It does give a lot of info, such as Dwell Times for different types of train, but I couldn't find any data on timings. As an example, between two adjacent stations (e.g. Macclesfield & Congleton), I'd like to know the time of travel between the two if they stopped at none, one or both stations in both directions. This would be different for different stock (e.g. Voyager or Pendolino). Am I making sense, or do you want a better explanation?
Aha - I get what you mean, unfortunately I can't help you in this department I'm afraid!
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Old 22nd July 2008, 23:46   #9
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Check pm 43106
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Old 23rd July 2008, 20:29   #10
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Quote:
Thanks for that Mr. Kempster - Sectional Running Times ARE available (to some degree) AND NR is responsible for them, but, as a non-railway professional, a lot of it goes over my head. There's a family of documents called "Rules of the Plan" available on the NR site - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse/...otp8/ln08p.pdf probably covers the area where you live. I couldn't get it to open, so go to the NR site, type in "Rules of the Plan" (including quotes) into the Search box, click on 'Search' and VOILA! If it doesn't open, send me a P.M. and I can send the actual .pdf file via conventional e-mail. I managed to download ALL of the NR area some months ago.

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Cheers for that but i have access to all that information myself. Due to the fact that most of the TOC and FOC use specially designed programs to plan their train services most of the SRTs are never seen as the computer program does all the work for the planners. The items you see in Rules of the Plan are there for restriction to the SRT such as Junction Margins, Headways, etc... Most of that information for this will be in the line of route information. This is where things such as box time and pathing time are used.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 22:36   #11
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SRTs are calculated by us in NR, TOCs and FOCs have nothing to do with the process (and quite frankly we wouldnt want them anywhere near it !!). They are all held in two internal train planning systems and as far as Im aware not for public consumption (so dont ask me for any!). The TOCs and FOCs get an export from our systems once a week to update the programs they use.

Rules of the Route and Rules of the Plan are two distinct documents. RotR cover the engineering blocks and, as previously mention, RotP covers all the stuff we have to adhere to when planning trains.
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Old 24th July 2008, 21:18   #12
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Sounds like you should apply for a job at NR!! There are at least two members who work in train planning on this forum that I can think of who may be able to advise.
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Old 24th July 2008, 21:42   #13
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Is there ever a case where the Rules of the Plan can be not adhered to? A while ago we were told our timetable for the Severn Beach Line was unworkable because RotP gave a 5 minute Turnaround allowance at Temple Meads for DMUs. In the new timetable, however, there are a number of two minute turnarounds.

I have just been reminded to check RotP by this thread and both the 2008 and the 2009 preliminary proposal both still say a 5 minute turnaround.
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Old 24th July 2008, 22:17   #14
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Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
Sounds like you should apply for a job at NR!!
Who? Me? I'd love to, but I'm too old (54) and this kind of stuff is done in York and/or Leeds, and I ain't relocating from Edinburgh!!!

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There are at least two members who work in train planning on this forum that I can think of who may be able to advise.
I have a feeling that both of them have already contributed to this thread. If so, I wish they could contribute more, especially to some spreadsheets I've got set up!
On a serious note, the information I'm after mostly appears in the PTT, but they are times rounded up/down. I'm specifically after the time a train passes THROUGH a station and/or junction, particularly the latter (for conflict reasons). How can NR take offence at such innocent information?
Also, are there any theoretical timings? If AXC, say, propose an Aberdeen - Birmingham service, via Dundee, Perth, Stirling, Cumbernauld, Coatbridge, Motherwell then down the WCML to Brum, could NR come back with a provisional WTT for it? It's just that I've got a few ideas that aren't in the PTT.

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Old 25th July 2008, 06:55   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Is there ever a case where the Rules of the Plan can be not adhered to? A while ago we were told our timetable for the Severn Beach Line was unworkable because RotP gave a 5 minute Turnaround allowance at Temple Meads for DMUs. In the new timetable, however, there are a number of two minute turnarounds.

I have just been reminded to check RotP by this thread and both the 2008 and the 2009 preliminary proposal both still say a 5 minute turnaround.
Technically you can't break RotP values, but if both TOC/FOC and NR agree a value and agree where the delay minutes go when/if it goes tits up then you can normally sneak it through.

Have you agreed a 2 minute turnaround with us for the Severn Beach trains ?? if thats the case then FGW must be ok with it. With that sort of short distance train then its just a case of driver changing ends. If he wants a PNB then its a different story I suppose. Id have thought it was trying to get the things a path up to Narroways Hill that causes that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 43106 View Post
Who? Me? I'd love to, but I'm too old (54) and this kind of stuff is done in York and/or Leeds, and I ain't relocating from Edinburgh!!!


I have a feeling that both of them have already contributed to this thread. If so, I wish they could contribute more, especially to some spreadsheets I've got set up!
On a serious note, the information I'm after mostly appears in the PTT, but they are times rounded up/down. I'm specifically after the time a train passes THROUGH a station and/or junction, particularly the latter (for conflict reasons). How can NR take offence at such innocent information?
Also, are there any theoretical timings? If AXC, say, propose an Aberdeen - Birmingham service, via Dundee, Perth, Stirling, Cumbernauld, Coatbridge, Motherwell then down the WCML to Brum, could NR come back with a provisional WTT for it? It's just that I've got a few ideas that aren't in the PTT.

43106
Write to the Train Planning Manager in the Leeds office (nothing is done in York). Be careful about what you think is a conflict though, because it might not be in our eyes !! WCML is pretty much set in stone now for a long while and I cant see it being changed. With your AXC question, AXC would come up with their own times for it and we would validate it and tell them whether its a goer or not. TOCs/FOCs tend to think other peoples trains will move for them though a lot of the time.....

Last edited by The Planner; 25th July 2008 at 06:58. Reason: Double post prevention system
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