Meeting due over Tube safety row - Northern Line

Dave A · 7th October 2005, 16:07

Meeting due over Tube safety row

Taken from - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4319052.stm

Rail union bosses are due to meet London Underground (LU) officials on Friday in a continuing row over safety.

Emergency braking systems on Northern Line trains have failed, so LU has introduced daily safety checks and is putting an extra driver in each train.

The driver shortage has meant fewer trains in operation, leading to severe delays for passengers.

Roger Evans, Conservative London Assembly member, said news of faulty braking systems "beggars belief".

A spokesman for rail union RMT said drivers were exercising their legal right not to move trains if their safety is at risk.

'Get a grip'

He said the emergency braking system, designed to stop trains going through danger signals, had failed four times in as many weeks.

Roger Evans, chairman of the London Assembly Transport Committee, said : "This latest news on braking systems beggars belief considering the money that's being poured into the Underground system.

"Ken Livingstone (London Mayor) and Bob Kiley (London's Transport Commissioner) really have got to get a grip on London Underground and sort out these basic problems before the entire system grinds to a halt."

Under the Public Private Partnership (PPP) scheme, Tube Lines and Alstom are responsible for maintenance on the Northern Line.

A spokesman for LU said it had been pressing both firms to resolve the situation for several weeks and was now directing and overseeing the work of Tube Lines and Alstom.

"The fact that they have not resolved the situation is completely unacceptable," he said.

A spokesman for Tube Lines said its top priority was passengers' safety and every train was being checked before going into service.

Alternative routes

He added that Alstom's performance had not been good enough and Tube Lines would not rule anything out to resolve the situation, including terminating the contract.

Alstom would not comment on its contract, but said it had been working closely with LU and Tube Lines.

The cause of the faulty brakes has still not been established.

Northern Line passengers are being advised to take alternative routes while delays continue.

Met Driver · 7th October 2005, 16:15

It sounds like a problem with the trainstops to me. It's more likely to be those, as the signalling on the Northern is amongst the oldest on the system.

yorkie · 7th October 2005, 16:17

By the same logic, should all bus drivers not drive buses? as there's more chance of a road traffic accident.

Or is this a case of double standards and/or an excuse for Bob Crowe and co to cause disruption?

Met Driver · 7th October 2005, 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkie

Or is this a case of double standards and/or an excuse for Bob Crowe and co to cause disruption?

If there's going to be second-manning until the problem is sorted, there's no reason for anyone to kick up a stink. The second-man would act as the trainstop, making an emergency brake application should the driver SPAD and fail to be tripped by a faulty trainstop.

7th October 2005, 16:59

Right, looked into this...

The signalling system is experiencing faults all the time due to the age of the system ... some signals are showing red but the trainstops are dropped into the green position. Also, on some trains, the tripcocks are faulty... in order to test that they work properly, almost every train is going to Morden and is being tripped by a permanent trainstop. All trains are tripped successfully with an emergency brake application however some fail to start the 10mph for 3 minutes system, some do start, but fail to reset, due to this, they do it at Morden so they can tip out and go into the depot for fixes.

TomCrame · 7th October 2005, 23:13

I think it's best the record is put straight on this subject. The issue appears to be that the trains are either failing to become tripped or the tripcocks are resetting themselves. There is no question relating to the integrity of the trainstops or any other part of the signalling system.

8th October 2005, 00:11

*roars at data source*

TomCrame · 8th October 2005, 10:06

I did do a dead late for the northern line double manning a few weeks ago, so I've got a rough idea what's going on. The fixed trainstops have two purposes, firstly to prove the tripcock does work at least once per trip and secondly that if it doesn't get tripped we know about it before entering a a terminal station.

jd · 8th October 2005, 13:42

Yes, this was on one of the newsgroups a while ago, it was quite clear on there that this was a rolling stock fault NOT a signalling system.

Met Driver · 11th October 2005, 22:40

According to BBC London News, the problem was that the tripcock resetting cords were too big, and will now be replaced with thinner ones.

Yes, that's right. The Northern Line has been a major shambles for weeks due to something as simple as this, and the JNP lot at Golders Green have only just dicsovered the problem...

jd · 12th October 2005, 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth

Yes, that's right. The Northern Line has been a major shambles for weeks due to something as simple as this, and the JNP lot at Golders Green have only just dicsovered the problem...

Well it's not *really* Tube Lines' fault, Alstom are responsible for the maintenance of the 95 fleet aren't they?

Met Driver · 12th October 2005, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd

Well it's not *really* Tube Lines' fault, Alstom are responsible for the maintenance of the 95 fleet aren't they?

It's Alstom's fault for using an oversized rope in the first place, but TubeLines are responsible for the day-to-day maintenance of the fleet.

Jordy · 12th October 2005, 21:30

LOL, notice the picture the BBC are using, I don't think thats a Northern Line train

Jordy

Met Driver · 12th October 2005, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royalscot

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4335994.stm

An entire London Underground line has been shut down amid safety concerns.

Services on the Northern Line, which carries 660,400 people every weekday, have been suspended and may remain closed on Thursday.

I guess this proves that there must be another problem on top of the tripcock resetting cord issue. I can't work out how the cord itself could actually prevent a train from being tripped.

jd · 12th October 2005, 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth

..but TubeLines are responsible for the day-to-day maintenance of the fleet.

I thought Tube Lines subcontract the maintenence to to Alstom?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News

London Underground (LU) has used emergency powers to oversee remedial work by Tube Lines and its subcontractor Alstom.

7th October 2005, 16:07	#1
Dave A My future control panel? Chief Executive Join Date: 7 Jun 2005 Posts: 1,175	Meeting due over Tube safety row - Northern Line Meeting due over Tube safety row Taken from - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4319052.stm Rail union bosses are due to meet London Underground (LU) officials on Friday in a continuing row over safety. Emergency braking systems on Northern Line trains have failed, so LU has introduced daily safety checks and is putting an extra driver in each train. The driver shortage has meant fewer trains in operation, leading to severe delays for passengers. Roger Evans, Conservative London Assembly member, said news of faulty braking systems "beggars belief". A spokesman for rail union RMT said drivers were exercising their legal right not to move trains if their safety is at risk. 'Get a grip' He said the emergency braking system, designed to stop trains going through danger signals, had failed four times in as many weeks. Roger Evans, chairman of the London Assembly Transport Committee, said : "This latest news on braking systems beggars belief considering the money that's being poured into the Underground system. "Ken Livingstone (London Mayor) and Bob Kiley (London's Transport Commissioner) really have got to get a grip on London Underground and sort out these basic problems before the entire system grinds to a halt." Under the Public Private Partnership (PPP) scheme, Tube Lines and Alstom are responsible for maintenance on the Northern Line. A spokesman for LU said it had been pressing both firms to resolve the situation for several weeks and was now directing and overseeing the work of Tube Lines and Alstom. "The fact that they have not resolved the situation is completely unacceptable," he said. A spokesman for Tube Lines said its top priority was passengers' safety and every train was being checked before going into service. Alternative routes He added that Alstom's performance had not been good enough and Tube Lines would not rule anything out to resolve the situation, including terminating the contract. Alstom would not comment on its contract, but said it had been working closely with LU and Tube Lines. The cause of the faulty brakes has still not been established. Northern Line passengers are being advised to take alternative routes while delays continue.

12th October 2005, 21:30	#13
Jordy POTW co-ordinator Moderator Join Date: 9 Jun 2005 Location: Grimsby Posts: 5,457	LOL, notice the picture the BBC are using, I don't think thats a Northern Line train Jordy __________________ My Railway Photos, Videos & other stuff on southtpe \| youtube --------------------------------------------------

7th October 2005, 16:15	#2
Met Driver TOC Owner Join Date: 8 Jun 2005 Posts: 2,097	It sounds like a problem with the trainstops to me. It's more likely to be those, as the signalling on the Northern is amongst the oldest on the system.

7th October 2005, 16:17	#3
yorkie Resident Ticketing Expert Moderator Join Date: 6 Jun 2005 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 10,083	By the same logic, should all bus drivers not drive buses? as there's more chance of a road traffic accident. Or is this a case of double standards and/or an excuse for Bob Crowe and co to cause disruption?

7th October 2005, 16:59	#5
Tom Guest Posts: n/a	Right, looked into this... The signalling system is experiencing faults all the time due to the age of the system ... some signals are showing red but the trainstops are dropped into the green position. Also, on some trains, the tripcocks are faulty... in order to test that they work properly, almost every train is going to Morden and is being tripped by a permanent trainstop. All trains are tripped successfully with an emergency brake application however some fail to start the 10mph for 3 minutes system, some do start, but fail to reset, due to this, they do it at Morden so they can tip out and go into the depot for fixes.

7th October 2005, 23:13	#6
TomCrame First Class Passenger Join Date: 6 Jul 2005 Posts: 32	I think it's best the record is put straight on this subject. The issue appears to be that the trains are either failing to become tripped or the tripcocks are resetting themselves. There is no question relating to the integrity of the trainstops or any other part of the signalling system.

8th October 2005, 00:11	#7
Tom Guest Posts: n/a	roars at data source

8th October 2005, 10:06	#8
TomCrame First Class Passenger Join Date: 6 Jul 2005 Posts: 32	I did do a dead late for the northern line double manning a few weeks ago, so I've got a rough idea what's going on. The fixed trainstops have two purposes, firstly to prove the tripcock does work at least once per trip and secondly that if it doesn't get tripped we know about it before entering a a terminal station.

8th October 2005, 13:42	#9
jd Driver Join Date: 9 Jun 2005 Posts: 627	Yes, this was on one of the newsgroups a while ago, it was quite clear on there that this was a rolling stock fault NOT a signalling system.

11th October 2005, 22:40	#10
Met Driver TOC Owner Join Date: 8 Jun 2005 Posts: 2,097	According to BBC London News, the problem was that the tripcock resetting cords were too big, and will now be replaced with thinner ones. Yes, that's right. The Northern Line has been a major shambles for weeks due to something as simple as this, and the JNP lot at Golders Green have only just dicsovered the problem...