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Old 2nd September 2010, 19:23   #1
Justin Smith
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Default British railways seat legroom.

Since there are a number of websites giving data on airline seat pitch I think it's about time the seat legroom on British railways rolling stock (coaches, carriages, EMUs and DMUs) was put on the internet. It may even discourage the inexorable and pernicious reduction in legroom on most British rolling stock.....
THE DATA BELOW IS NOT THE SEAT PITCH, it's the distance from the rear of the seat (parallel with the seat cushion) to the point on the rear of the seat in front at the height where one's knees would normally be (see linked graphic at bottom). The info is only for airline type seating, and from the surface of the rear cushion, not pressing it right in !

Note, a few seat spacings are variable (some more than others.....) but the figures still give a meaningful idea of how cramped, or not, you're likely to be. Personally I'm unhappy with less than 28" (of legroom that is), but even that isn't exactly roomy, 29" or more is OK.
I was surprised at how much difference one inch can make.
(Haven't I heard that before somewhere ?)

Class 142 (railbus) Northern Rail (Bench type seats)
Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

Class 144 (railbus) Northern Rail (High backed Richmond seats)
Standard = 26" (poor) / Priority = 32" / First = N/A

Class 150 Northern Rail and Arriva Wales (refurbished)
Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

Class 153 Northern Rail (both unrefurbished and refurbished)
Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

Class 156 Northern Rail
Standard = 26 to 28" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

Class 158 Northern Rail (non refurbished)
Standard = 25 to 26" (very poor) / Priority = 32" / First = N/A

Class 158 East Midland Trains (refurbished)
Standard = 27 to 29" / Priority = 31"+ / First = N/A

Class 170 Trans Pennine
Standard = 27 to 28" / Priority = 31" / First = ?

Class 175 Arriva Trains Wales
Standard = 30 to 31" (good) / Priority = 34" (good) / First = N/A

Class 180 Hull Trains
Standard = 34" (excellent) / Priority = 35" (excellent) / First = 34"+

Class 185 Trans Pennine Express
Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = 33" / First = 34"

Class 220/221 Voyager Cross Country Trains
Standard = 28" / Priority = 33" / First = 36"

Class 222 Meridian East Midland Trains
Standard = 29+" / Priority = 31+" / First = 36+"

Class 333 Northern Rail
Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

Class 373 Eurostar
Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = ? / First = ?

Class 390 Pendolino Virgin Trains
Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = 31+" / First = 35 to 36"

HST Cross Country Trains
Standard = 26 to 27" * (very poor) / Priority = 31+" / First = ?

HST East Coast Trains
Standard = 27" * (poor) / Priority = ? / First = 36"

HST East Midland Trains
Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = ? / First = 38+"

IC225 (electric) Mk4 coach East Coast Trains (Mallard refurbished)
Standard = 27" * (poor) / Priority = 32" / First = 37"

* The above figures are so poor (for a long distance Inter City train) I have rechecked them 2 or 3 times and, incredibly, they really are only 27", or less..........
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Seating legroom dimension 400W L20 8kB.jpg (7.4 KB, 50 views)

Last edited by Justin Smith; 15th July 2012 at 23:16.
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Old 2nd September 2010, 20:42   #2
mumrar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Smith View Post
Since there are a number of websites giving data on airline seat pitch I think it's about time the seat legroom on British railways rolling stock (coaches, carriages, EMUs and DMUs) was put on the internet. It may even discourage the inexorable and pernicious reduction in legroom on most British rolling stock.....
This website may even consider having a section for it (they may even make some money on the click through advertising ! ) but if they're not interested in that I may put the info on my own site when more data is collected.
THE DATA BELOW IS NOT THE SEAT PITCH, it's the distance from the rear of the seat (parallel with the seat cushion) to the point on the rear of the seat in front at the height where one's knees would normally be. The info is only for airline type seating.
It would be hepful for others to add info, either directly or they can PM me or send me an E Mail via the contact us section on my website.

Northern Rail Class 144 (High backed Richmond seats)
Standard = 26" Priority = 32" First = N/A

Northern Rail Class 158 (non refurbished)
Standard = 26" Priority = 32" First = N/A

East Coast Mk4 coach (Mallard refurbished)
Standard = 27" Priority = 32" First = 37"
Being as you only have infor currently for airline style seats, you should compare the units like for like with contempory BR units with densely packed seating. Maybe you could also compare with how many of the old vehicles would be required versus the new stock, ie how many mk2s or mk3s in BR form would be needed for the current mk4 rake capacity.
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Old 2nd September 2010, 21:06   #3
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Lord help us
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Old 2nd September 2010, 21:45   #4
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This would be incredibly difficult as there are quite a variety of seating layouts across so many different vehicle types, even though they are supposed to be the same even with a single TOC

It would be possible to list the main types, but with such a variety it would be impractical

Just as an example, the Class 156 within ScotRail has a basic seating plan and layout, but the measurements between seats can vary as their use has varied since introduction
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Old 2nd September 2010, 23:02   #5
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Oh for God's sake.
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Old 2nd September 2010, 23:29   #6
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Have I missed the religious connection?
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Old 2nd September 2010, 23:33   #7
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I'll let someone else explain, too tired to go into it
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Old 3rd September 2010, 00:42   #8
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Are you going to compare the various window sizes and the relative window area to pillar ratio as well?

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Old 3rd September 2010, 00:42   #9
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Old 3rd September 2010, 01:12   #10
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Oh my goodness gracious.. he really doesn't give up does he?

Justin, are you REALLY this bored that you must spend your life going around doing things as sad as this?
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Old 3rd September 2010, 08:33   #11
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I assume that people think nobody is interested in this data.
My answer is why is there more than one website giving seat pitch/legroom for airlines ?
I`d have thought it could only be a good thing if this data was out there, you don`t have to read it if you don`t want to, so how come you`re getting so worked up about it ? Don`t understand some people.......

Just from checking the data for three trains there are already some surprising figures, like a C158 has only got the same legroom as a C144 ! The former is a longer distance unit, the latter a rail bus meant for short trips.
And a refurbished "Mallard" EC Mk4 only has 1" more legroom than a C144 !
I`d be interested to know what the legroom was on a Mk4 as originally built.

I also think that some TOCs, like Grand Central and Wrexham & Shropshire, should get credit for having more leg room on their trains. I was on a W&S Mk3 only the other week but had not started doing this research, don`t know when I`ll get the chance again !
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Old 3rd September 2010, 08:36   #12
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Quote:
Just from checking the data for three trains there are already some surprising figures, like a C158 has only got the same legroom as a C144 !
Fascinating. Do excuse me, I've got some paint to watch drying.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 09:40   #13
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I think if anyone else had suggested this idea then I think people would be more embracing of the idea but since it's Justin and given his "dog with a bone" attitude on previous threads regarding legroom, window sizes etc... then people just see it as another one of those rant threads where the OP always has to prove he is right...

Presumably once all the data is collected, the ranting will begin about how bad and uncomfortable it is these days to travel by train
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Old 3rd September 2010, 10:24   #14
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I think you are right Geezertronic. Speaking for myself, I am not at all interested in this data. I have a feeling that the reason that there are no websites currently showing these facts and figures is precisely because there are very few people who are interested.

Unlike airlines, UK railways have long ceased to market their products on the basis of having more space and comfort than a competitor. I remember the old BR ads where a train was compared to a plane, with wider seats and more space, but that must have been twenty years ago!

I think we should leave Justin to it. Let him continue to spend his time trying to 'prove' that there is a huge swathe of the population that agrees with him. In the meantime, I am not going to contribute in any way, shape or form, and this will be my one and only post in this thread! That's a promise!

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Old 3rd September 2010, 11:07   #15
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Aye, leave him be- I actually think it's good that he's making an attempt to back up his ranting with numbers.
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