[YorkshireBear]

Just seen somethign related and remembered to ask.

would there be any scope to restart mail operations by rail or is that it? i have no idea what happened to make them stop at all so would like to knwo that too. i know very little about it

[142094]

Some still do operate via the WCML. Willsden to Glasgow IIRC. Most Royal Mail terminals seem to be still in place, such as Low Fell, just not used. I can remember every morning a big rake of vans at Heaton depot ready for use later on in the day.

[driver9000]

Mail still has a presence on the mainline railways in the shape of class 325 EMUs that run between Willesdon and Shieldmuir mail terminals. Until recently the contract was held by GBRf to provide traincrew etc but is now operated by DB Schenker.

The mail trains ceased around 2004 when Royal Mail decided the tenders placed to operate the mail trains were too expensive. EWS was the only viable operator as they had all the TPO and mail vans.

[YorkshireBear]

I knew about the few services on WCML but i meant beyond the very few services there is now

[driver9000]

Most of the TPO vans has been scrapped now as far as I know, so unless there is a new build of vans or conversion of stored passenger stock (and the costs involved would be high) a return to the mail trains we used to have is unlikely.

[LE Greys]

There might be a potential for some sort of service for mail and parcels using the same type of containers used aboard aircraft, possibly using Voyager-outline units. Ideally, this could link up with the air cargo distribution system, enabling worldwide coverage. There's a potential for UPS, TNT, FedEx and so on to use rail as part of their networks, if there is enough demand. A four-car unit would probably have about the same capacity as six of their articulated lorries. I'm not sure of the fuel consumption figures, but it might work as a hub-to-hub system.

However, if BR had build a couple of hundred MkIII parcels vans back in the 80s, I don't think we'd be where we are now. Even with Class 47s, they would have increased efficiency in terms of lower running costs (mostly by having fewer bogies per train). Hook them behind a Class 67, and that cuts travel times as well. I suppose they couldn't do everything, but that was a big mistake.

[jopsuk]

Even if there had been mrk3 parcels vans, I doubt we'd have had TPOs- just mail trains. TPOs would not fit with the highly centralised system of mail sorting- remember, in TPO days, there were also a lot more sorting offices

But it does seem crazy that we truck and fly so much mail between domestic depots- and rail is ideal for hub-to-hub operations

[mickey]

Originally Posted by jopsuk

Even if there had been mrk3 parcels vans, I doubt we'd have had TPOs- just mail trains. TPOs would not fit with the highly centralised system of mail sorting- remember, in TPO days, there were also a lot more sorting offices

But it does seem crazy that we truck and fly so much mail between domestic depots- and rail is ideal for hub-to-hub operations

This is correct: we have seen the last of the TPOs. However, there is considerable potential for pre-sorted movements by rail, particularly on core trunk routes (like the current London-Warrington-Glasgow run) and particularly for second class and parcel mail which has a slightly longer delivery window.

Royal Mail abandoned the railway as a result of poor night time access between 2002 and 2004. It's a great shame. However, I did see an internal RM article about a year back saying they're very pleased with the performance of the 325s (with GBRf then). I think if the rest of the main lines and fill-ins are electrified they will be used for mail, but as diesel trains are more expensive and unreliable they don't want to chance it.

Incidentally, DHL sends some of its stuff by rail, on normal container trains.

[Greenback]

Originally Posted by jopsuk

Even if there had been mrk3 parcels vans, I doubt we'd have had TPOs- just mail trains. TPOs would not fit with the highly centralised system of mail sorting- remember, in TPO days, there were also a lot more sorting offices

But it does seem crazy that we truck and fly so much mail between domestic depots- and rail is ideal for hub-to-hub operations

You are correct. Royal Mail has, for years, been trying to automate as much of the mail processing as possible. This has meant that the number of mail centres has reduced, in order to justify bthe ivnestment in bigger, better and more advanced machinery.

I'm afraid that, much as it saddened me and my former colleagues that actually worked on South Wales TPO, mail bags and manual sorting has no place in the Royal mail strategy!

[sprinterguy]

If there is a future for transporting mail by rail, I think it lies in containerised transport of pre-sorted bulk mail between major hubs, in a similar vein to DHLs’ practice mentioned above.

I agree that Travelling Post Offices’ will probably never be seen again, which is a shame as I think they offered rail a distinct selling point to Royal Mail, by reducing the workload at distribution centres, but rail also has the advantage of being very efficient at carrying large bulk loads between major hubs cost effectively, which is now the factor to consider: Given that Royal Mail have moved towards greater centralisation in their operations over fewer sites, this should make rail ideal for Royal Mail use: I’m always bemused by the number of individual Royal Mail lorries you see on the motorway, most likely all heading to or from the same distribution centre: Why use thirty lorries when one train would be able to fulfil the same function? The infrastructure for rail shipment of mail and parcels is already there in the shape of the purpose built Royal Mail terminals.

[mickey]

Originally Posted by sprinterguy

Why use thirty lorries when one train would be able to fulfil the same function?

Because you can dispatch a lorry as soon as it's ready, thirty times if necessary, while you have to wait for all 30 to be loaded onto a train and then cover the same distance. Plus you then have a lot to process at once at the other end, whereas with lorries you can spread the workload out.

I think we're (mostly!) all agreed rail's future will be for efficient high-volume transport over longer distances. I do hope this will eventually be extended to include the north east and south west. One thing that's for sure though is that it won't be possible to justify paying lots people to sort the kind of mail volumes by hand on a train that would take 30 minutes at most to process by machine.

[LE Greys]

Originally Posted by sprinterguy

If there is a future for transporting mail by rail, I think it lies in containerised transport of pre-sorted bulk mail between major hubs, in a similar vein to DHLs’ practice mentioned above.

Roughly what I was thinking, but my version was more along the lines of a unit load device (which I used to call an airline luggage container). I've seen them cramming seven or eight into a 737 on numerous occasions, and often wondered if it was not possible to do the same for railways. They are usually 88 or 96 inches wide at their narrowest axis, making it just possible to fit one into the loading gauge, provided you have a very large door on the van they would go inside (or curtain sides). In theory, they could travel in the open, but weatherproofing might require a van. This van could also transport palletted goods if necessary, but the intention would be to widen the use of these containers, and if necessary to fly them for part of the journey. If railways and shipping can co-operate using large containers, why not railways and air cargo using little ones.

[Peter Mugridge]

They did in fact try that a bit - two vehicles were converted to convey standard airline containers.

These were classed NRX and were numbered 95400 ( previously NCX number 95203 and before that BG 80621 ) and 95401 ( ex-95213, ex-80626 ).

They had roller shutter doors and roller floors and the gangways were removed.

But with only two such vehicles, there was, of course, never any hope of getting any custom for them beyond the initial trials and they ended up being used by EWS to cart spares around! Had they converted more vehicles then the outcome could have been very different.

I think one of them might still be stored at Millerhill near Edinburgh?

[jopsuk]

I've been wondering what sort of container the Thai Class 360s take- the four car units on the Suvarnabhumi Airport Link have one carriage given over to taking checked-in luggage. Trying to find pictures, but the interior of the coach has rollers for moving palettes/crates around.

Perhaps a new standard crate could be created- able to fit into both a UK gauge train and into a B737/A320 type plane- that wiki article indicates the standard ULDs don't fit in the hold of the single-aisle jets?

Edit: Ahah! an interior shot of the 360 baggage car
loading dock
those numbered boxes will be the containers

[mickey]

Originally Posted by jopsuk

Perhaps a new standard crate could be created- able to fit into both a UK gauge train and into a B737/A320 type plane

The trouble is that most Royal Mail flights use much smaller planes than this, and I think most of them would struggle to hold the containers.

Incidentally, the exceptions to this used to be the flights for which they used Jet2's 737QC aircraft for night mail flights (they may still use them, I don't know). In this case it's the same plane that carries passengers during the day, the seats are removed (QC stands for 'Quick Change') and mail bags thrown on each evening. As they're not dedicated freight aircraft I doubt these planes could cope with ULD containers either.