[The Engineer]

Originally Posted by rail-britain

As for adding additional coaches to the Voyagers, this would be up to the DfT
As things stand this is very unlikely

Wait for the IEP decision. If IEP does not go ahead, at least in its main form, a number of refurb and conversion jobs are waiting in the wings. The extra paantograph cars for 22x is a leading contender in this job list. It has been concepted, tendered and just awaits an order.....

[Kingfisher200262]

Originally Posted by The Engineer

Wait for the IEP decision. If IEP does not go ahead, at least in its main form, a number of refurb and conversion jobs are waiting in the wings. The extra paantograph cars for 22x is a leading contender in this job list. It has been concepted, tendered and just awaits an order.....

I think it would be more accurate to say that it has been "proposed" (by Bombardier), not tendered, as I don't believe at a "tender" has been launched, by either DfT, a ROSCO or a TOC.

On this occasion, I hope common sense prevails and that there is no tender process, as it makes no sense, given that the only logical supplier for these vehicles is Bombardier. That said, I hope Bombardier does not take advantage of the situation by hiking the vehicle price too much.
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Originally Posted by 142094

Not sure how much room there are in depots as well for new units - take TPE, York depot can't hold that many 3 car 185s so if they were increased to 5 as has been suggested it probably could not happen.

So how were extra units ever going to be accommodated, when they were proposed under the 202 vehicle HLOS, or, indeed, prior to that, the extra vehicles to strengthen the 3-car 185s to 4-car?

[telstarbox]

Originally Posted by sprinterguy

And I think most importantly, micromanagement of the train operators by the DfT that control exactly how much is spent on new trains in a franchise. I know the OP asked for reasons other than cost, but in the end it principally boils down to money.

So if the DfT need to micro-manage franchises so much, what's the point in having a competitive tendering process for a franchise in the first place? Why don't the DfT just work out every last detail, write it all in a big list and give it to the chosen company?

[sprinterguy]

Originally Posted by telstarbox

So if the DfT need to micro-manage franchises so much, what's the point in having a competitive tendering process for a franchise in the first place? Why don't the DfT just work out every last detail, write it all in a big list and give it to the chosen company?

Part of the reason the franchising process is currently being rewritten to produce rail franchising version 3 is to allow more autonomous decisions to be taken by the franchise holder to decide how they want to run the franchise.

Whilst it is necessary for the DfT to set some basic standards in the rail franchises to avoid the private TOCs, which are largely bus operators, doing to the railways what they have done to the bus network since deregulation and concentrating most of their efforts onto the profitable corridors, there also needs to be room for the TOC to show a bit of entrepreneurial flair if there are to be any real benefits to privatisation.

[Class 33]

They do need to get more carriages for various services throughout the network to ease overcrowding. Instead of spending godknows how much money on this HS2 London-Birmingham high speed line which isn't really needed yet. There are allready two London-Birmingham lines, and the Chiltern mainline route will have journey times reduced to 1 hour 40 minutes when the line is upgraded next year. Just what is the point of a third London-Birmingham line? Invest in more carriages throughout the network first to inprove the travelling experience for passengers all over the UK, then perhaps think about building this new high speed London-Birmingham line.

[The Barlow Boy]

Originally Posted by jopsuk

Was anything actually used off the 3rd rail in push mode other than TC units?

The safety restrictions of central locking and SDO were brought about because there were safety incidents due to non-locked doors- not common, but made (barring systems failure) impossible with the complicated systems.

Perhaps you don't remember or know of the Glasgow - Edinburgh class 27 operated push-pull sets?

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by The Barlow Boy

Perhaps you don't remember or know of the Glasgow - Edinburgh class 27 operated push-pull sets?

The good old days with the 27/1s and 27/2s

[jopsuk]

Originally Posted by The Barlow Boy

Perhaps you don't remember or know of the Glasgow - Edinburgh class 27 operated push-pull sets?

Ah, I wasn't clear enough- I meant any Southern EMU stock- I know about the E-G push-pull services- and indeed the Great Eastern Mainline (formerly 47s and Mark 2s), East Coast Mainline (the Mark 4+91 sets), West Coast Mainline (90+mrk3, now mainly on the GEML) and WSMR (67+mrk3) push-pull. I was wondering if any REPs etc were ever pushed away from 3rd rails by the 33s- I'd have though they'd try to avoid doing so, but strange things happen.

[Geezertronic]

Originally Posted by Class 33

They do need to get more carriages for various services throughout the network to ease overcrowding. Instead of spending godknows how much money on this HS2 London-Birmingham high speed line which isn't really needed yet. There are allready two London-Birmingham lines, and the Chiltern mainline route will have journey times reduced to 1 hour 40 minutes when the line is upgraded next year. Just what is the point of a third London-Birmingham line? Invest in more carriages throughout the network first to inprove the travelling experience for passengers all over the UK, then perhaps think about building this new high speed London-Birmingham line.

HS2 is not just about London-Birmingham is it....

[ainsworth74]

Originally Posted by Geezertronic

HS2 is not just about London-Birmingham is it....

It will be until at least the mid 2030s.

[sprinterguy]

Originally Posted by ainsworth74

It will be until at least the mid 2030s.

Well, the West Coast main line was only electrified as far as Weaver Junction for a few years, and nobody these days would dream of suggesting that it should never have been done because it was initially "only going to Manchester and Liverpool". Big projects like HS2 have to be carried out in stages to make them managable financially and logistically, HS2 is certainly not just about a Birmingham to London commuter shuttle.

Construction of HS2 won't begin until 2017 at the earliest, so it is not the case that money that could be spent on additional carriages is currently being spent on "building HS2". We’ll be under a completely different government and in a completely different economic situation by the time HS2 is under construction. And if HS2 were to be withdrawn the funding committed to it wouldn’t be spread over other railway projects anyway. It would go elsewhere, or just be lost altogether.

[yorksrob]

Originally Posted by jopsuk

Ah, I wasn't clear enough- I meant any Southern EMU stock- I know about the E-G push-pull services- and indeed the Great Eastern Mainline (formerly 47s and Mark 2s), East Coast Mainline (the Mark 4+91 sets), West Coast Mainline (90+mrk3, now mainly on the GEML) and WSMR (67+mrk3) push-pull. I was wondering if any REPs etc were ever pushed away from 3rd rails by the 33s- I'd have though they'd try to avoid doing so, but strange things happen.

Well, various electric units have been pulled around the place on the Southern often carrying passengers. As for actual proper multiple unit operation as opposed to just dragging, the only other examples I can think of are the MLV's which can pull any 2nd generation Southern unit on battery power away from the 3rd rail on short distances, and there was a prototype TC which worked in push-pull mode on the Oxted line in the 60's. I think that this was basically a 2BIL with various redundant Bullied SUB trailers sandwiched inbetween.

[Geezertronic]

Originally Posted by ainsworth74

It will be until at least the mid 2030s.

So where has the current Governments plans to extend the Y North of Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds gone then? Plus if legacy stock can utilise the links, journey times would decrease to Northern destinations regardless?

[ainsworth74]

Originally Posted by Geezertronic

So where has the current Governments plans to extend the Y North of Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds gone then?

Nowhere, but last I head London-Birmingham was supposed to open until 2025, so I'm not expecting anything in the Leeds/Manchester region until at least 2030 and being a bit pessimistic about the whole thing I'm expecting it later rather than sooner.

Plus if legacy stock can utilise the links, journey times would decrease to Northern destinations regardless?

As far as I'm aware no legacy stock will be using HS2, new build stock will be compatible with the current infrastructure however. Journey times will reduce yes, but so what? Manchester and Glasgow will see some benefit, but rail already has the lions share of Manchester to London, and I'm not sure the time saved will be tempting that many off airplanes to Glasgow at least until HS2 gets to Manchester proper. As for Leeds there won't be much benefit as the connection will be to the WCML not the ECML so unless your also planning on electrifying the cross country route (which I'm all in favour of) Leeds won't see any benefit until HS2 actually arrives same goes for Newcastle and York.

Look I think we've argued about HS2 before, so I will say my peace and be done. Personally I don't think we should be investing in HS2 until we've sorted the classic lines out with wider reaching electrification (GWML and MML), more capacity on existing services and better links between cities such as Hull-Leeds-Manchester-Sheffield with each other as just a few examples. Once we've done that then I would like to see HS2.

[MCR247]

HS2 will almost make connecting flights from Manchester- Heathrow redundant, if there was a terminal for HS2 in Manchester where you an check your bags in and not see them until the destination of your flight. The station would be given an IATA code, and then bags can be checked in abroad for the destination of Manchester say