[deltic]

A number of MPs have made comments on the proposed route which suggest that the section to Leeds will stop at what look like parkway stations at Totton and Meadowhall. Not clear where the station will actually be in Leeds. There has been talk of a parkway station at the junction where HS2 will branch off into Leeds and carry on to connect back with ECML but not clear where that will be.

Anyone know how many paths could be made available on ECML and MML as a result of HS2 and how they are likely to be used?

[Nym]

Well, my guess is that everything fast will be sent via HS2, so that would be 2tph Leeds and 2tph York (Newcastle & Edinbrugh).

Personally I'd have the HS2 line run as full sized HS2 to Leeds and branch off (grade seperated) to re-join the ECML just south of Doncaster, so there is potential for off route services such as Hull to be sent via HS2 with servicing dividing at Doncaster. (200m to Hull, 200m to Newcastle etc etc)

So that at the top of the Yorkshire and E Mids arm of the HS2 route, the line itself continues into Leeds and terminates, and there is a branch to Doncaster on the ECML for services to Edinbrugh and Newcastle to use. But at this point I'd also want to look at intergrating the Birmingham end of HS2 into the Camp Hill Line if the route to Bristol is electrified, and using HS2 as part of the XC Network. Full of crazy ideas me...

With planned further extentions to York and eventually Newcastle.

[cle]

I think that for journey times to be half decent, the section linking north of Leeds has to bypass Leeds.

Joining at Doncaster would be pointless - it will have come via Birmingham?! It would be quicker up the ECML. As for London to Hull via Birmingham....!

Around the Selby area would make more sense, the further north the better as the longer at 300+km/h, the more time savings over the ECML.

I don't think a York bypass makes sense. on the other hand, a fast York is about 1h50 and I can't imagine running on HS2 via B'ham International, East Midlands and Sheffield stops would make it much quicker.

[stockport1]

how does HS2 help leeds-manchester-liverpool commuters?

[Nym]

But it will free up paths on the ECML... And it would be about 1hr35 to York if the line reahed say, the junctions to the south, with Leeds served by a branch from a Delta Junction
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Originally Posted by stockport1

how does HS2 help leeds-manchester-liverpool commuters?

It doesn't...

The're helpled by the Northern Hub and possible CP5 Electrification of the TP North network.

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by Nym

Well, my guess is that everything fast will be sent via HS2, so that would be 2tph Leeds and 2tph York (Newcastle & Edinbrugh)

It potentially frees up more paths on the ECML though, since it'll remove some of the speed differentials on the two track sections (e.g. a 91 running on the two track section through Stoke Tunnel area is going to catch up an EMT 158 on Liverpool - Norwich).

If everything on the ECML becomes 100mph max then that allows more services to be fitted in.

[Nym]

Kind of my point tbtc...

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by Nym

Kind of my point tbtc...

Okay, sorry, jut trying to make the point that you free up more paths than the just the number of trains diverted away...

[Nym]

Would also take up swathes of XC's path if the core of XC's network is electrified by then. eg.

Newcastle / Edin - Bristol via HS2, Manchester - Reading via HS2, reverse at Curzon St and use a (not yet specified, but hopfully will be) link to the WCML at Coventry, with Bristol using a C Brum link to the Camp Hill line.

[DXMachina]

The comment about northern trains being routed onto HS2 makes me wonder.... when new high speed units take on scotland services currently run by Virgin Pendolinos and East Coast 91s, what happens to the displaced stock?

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by DXMachina

The comment about northern trains being routed onto HS2 makes me wonder.... when new high speed units take on scotland services currently run by Virgin Pendolinos and East Coast 91s, what happens to the displaced stock?

Fair question.

Some long distance units will be life expired by the time HS2 is completed (the first bit to BIrmingham won't open until 2025 at the earliest, so it may take twenty years for the whole thing to be built).

There are also a few long distance services that are still diesel - the Midland Mainline and Cross Country being the obvious ones.

Plus there will still need to be services from London to Grantham/ Stoke etc (and other places not on the HS2 route)

[Philip Elliott]

It potentially frees up more paths on the ECML though, since it'll remove some of the speed differentials on the two track sections (e.g. a 91 running on the two track section through Stoke Tunnel area is going to catch up an EMT 158 on Liverpool - Norwich).

If everything on the ECML becomes 100mph max then that allows more services to be fitted in.

I'm sure the people of Wakefield, Hull, Doncaster, Peterborough, Newark, Grantham etc etc will be so glad to hear they will get slower trains

[Nym]

Hence why I'd have it connecting south of Doncaster, splitting in the platforms to serve the Branches from Doncaster.

For the inital network running into Leeds at full size gauge and a connection to Doncaster for Classic Compatible units.

Considering that CC units will not be able to run at double length in most ECML stations, 400m long services could join up at Doncaster and run onwards to York (2tph) and the other portion onto Leeds via Wakefeild 1tph or Hull, or Harrogate via York (Splitting at York), or Cleethorpes (Loco hauled), etc.

400m long platforms wouldn't be too difficult to drop into Doncaster, neither would EU Gauge platforms for full size units to fit, so the line may continue from Doncaster to York and onwards to Newcastle as full size units. Splitting still being facilitated within Doncaster station.

Example service pattern being...

2tph Euston - (Birmingham Intl) - (E Mids) - Sheffeild - Leeds (Captive) (Possible extentions using CC Stock)
2tph Euston - (Birmingham Intl) - (E Mids) - Sheffeild - Doncaster (SPLIT) (All operated by CC Stock)
---- 2tph York - (Darlington) - (Durham) - Newcastle 1tph extended to Edinburgh
---- 1tph Bradford / Skipton / Harrogate via Leeds & Wakefeild
---- 1tp2h Hull Paragon Interchange or Harrogate via York

1tph Edinburgh - Newcastle - (Durham) - (Darlington) - York - Doncaster - (Sheffeild) - (E Mids) - Birmingham CZS - (Bristol, if available) CC Stock
1tph Leeds - Sheffeild - E Mids - Birmingham CZS - (Reading, if available) CC Stock

With of course...

3tph Euston - Birmingham CZS (Captive)
3tph Euston - Manchester (CC Stock, but into the dedicated HS2 terminus with 430m platforms)

The following would be 200m long at terminus, and therefore could be joined at Crewe...
(Not that question marks indicate fantasy services)
1tph Euston - Liverpool via Runcorn
1tph Euston - Glasgow

1tph Euston - Liverpool via St Helens
1tph Euston - Blackpool

1tph Euston - Chester
1tph Euston - Manchester Victoria - Huddersfeild - Brighouse - Bradford?

And that leaves paths available for international services:

1tph Manchester Mayfeild HS2 -
1tph Leeds City / HS2 or Newcastle Central - York - Sheffeild - E Mids
Join at: Birmingham (CZS / Intl) - OOC - Stratford Intl - Somwhere through the tunnel

And of course the good sense of:
1tph from Manchester & Birmingham to Gatwick via Heathrow
1tph from Newcastle and Leeds to Gatwick via Heathrow

Thats a nice comfortable 16tph... although some four track would mean many more services would be able to run...

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by Philip Elliott

I'm sure the people of Wakefield, Hull, Doncaster, Peterborough, Newark, Grantham etc etc will be so glad to hear they will get slower trains

Bear in mind that a large number of the fast trains run non-stop through Peterborough/ Grantham/ Newark/ Doncaster, I'm sure it won't be the end of their world when there's more space on the line for stoppers.

Look at the places on main lines that lack a decent local service because the paths are eaten up by fast trains that don't stop there (like the recent ECML thread on here)

[Philip Elliott]

Look at the places on main lines that lack a decent local service because the paths are eaten up by fast trains that don't stop there (like the recent ECML thread on here)

They're still won't be space for local trains to places like Tuxford if they're still Intercity services to Hull, Wakefield etc. If HS2 was about capacity then it would serve all the current key destinations.