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Old 17th January 2012, 23:56   #1
kg94sat
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Default National Rail Bye Law 17

Hello All

With reference to National Rail Byelaw http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/upl...waybyelaws.pdf,

Section 17:

17. Compulsory Ticket Areas
(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has
with him a valid ticket.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticke


I notice that Section 24: Enforcement, excludes the breach of above Section 17. What happens when a passenger is in breach of Section 17? Why is it excluded from the Byelaw.

Thanks

kg
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Old 18th January 2012, 00:04   #2
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Is this a general equiey or did you have a particular scenario in mind?

Knowing this will help people to give an answer more taylord to the circumstances.

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Old 18th January 2012, 00:19   #3
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Scenario: Say a passenger travels from any of the national rail penalty fare stations(but non-compulsory ticket area) in London to Waterloo without appropriate ticket. In waterloo station, the passenger approaches a RPI to purchase a ticket. The RPI refuses to issue a one way ticket or issue a penalty fare notice, but starts taking statement (supposedly with intention to prosecute)

If he were to be prosecuted subsequently under National Rail Byelaw, which is the appropriate section

Section 17(1) or
Section 18(1)

Kg

-------------Section 18(1) for reference-------------------------

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket

Last edited by kg94sat; 18th January 2012 at 00:37.
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Old 18th January 2012, 00:21   #4
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South West Trains do not have any Compulsory Ticket Areas (CTAs) last time I checked. For example there is a CTA at Clapham Junction but that's the Overground platform only, as far as I know.

I was shocked in Croydon when I discovered that it is impossible to enter some houses without entering a CTA. Anyone who lives at the houses affected appears to be technically committing an offence whenever they step outside their drive.
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Old 18th January 2012, 00:48   #5
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Ok. So basically Southwest do not have any CTAs, so that they can charge people on 18(1). Makes sense

So, let us instead of Waterloo assume that the station is Marlyebone (which has a CTA), what happens then?

Last edited by kg94sat; 18th January 2012 at 01:04.
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Old 18th January 2012, 00:56   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kg94sat View Post
In this scenario, the passenger /RPI encounter happens at Waterloo station which is a Compulsory Ticket Area.
I don't think it is. Contrast National Rail Enquiries' description of Marylebone:
Quote:
Penalty Fares apply to journeys from London Marylebone station when travelling with Chiltern Railways.

Parts of this station are within a Compulsory Ticket Area - you are not permitted to enter this area without a valid ticket, travel authority or platform ticket. The Compulsory Ticket Area will be clearly signed.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/MYB.html
with that of Waterloo:
Quote:
Penalty Fares apply to journeys from London Waterloo station when travelling with South West Trains.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/WAT.html
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Old 18th January 2012, 01:06   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
I was shocked in Croydon when I discovered that it is impossible to enter some houses without entering a CTA. Anyone who lives at the houses affected appears to be technically committing an offence whenever they step outside their drive.
I'm trying to conceive of how that's possible (unless their front doors open directly onto the platform, which admittedly would be quite handy in the morning ). Are the roads part of the CTA? How can they be?
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Old 18th January 2012, 01:11   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
I'm trying to conceive of how that's possible (unless their front doors open directly onto the platform, which admittedly would be quite handy in the morning ). Are the roads part of the CTA? How can they be?
I don't think the roads are, but the pavements are. As for how, that's because we elect people who make these decisions. Again, it's biased toward car users, because I'd imagine someone driving a car out of their drive cannot be 'done' yet theoretically, to the letter of the law, someone walking could be. Now I know that they will use the defence "but we wouldn't use it like that" but just look at some of the appealing prosecutions for byelaw offences on railway ticketing matters. The byelaws are misused by some operators and should be rescinded and replaced with reasonable, fair, up-to-date byelaws that are fit for the 21st century and do not penalise innocent people who have no ill intentions.
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Old 18th January 2012, 01:12   #9
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John

Agree with you.

I had assumed that any area that has ticket barriers would be Compulsory Ticket Areas (areas where visitors can not enter). Hence, I had assumed that London Waterloo has a Compulsory Ticket Area.

That is why in my example scenario, I changed the station to London Marylebone, which has a Compulsory Ticket Area
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Old 18th January 2012, 01:13   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
I don't think the roads are, but the pavements are.
Why? Are they railway property? And if so why just the pavements?
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Old 18th January 2012, 01:22   #11
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Actually I've found their get-out. After basically saying anyone entering/exiting certain driveways is commiting an offence it does pardon these people if they have not got on a tram...
"No person at a tramstop or a station compulsory ticket area shall be in breach of this Byelaw 19 unless he came there by alighting from a tram."
So the Croydon Tramline Byelaws in respect of CTAs are quite different to Railway Byelaws. On the Railway Byelaws you can be issued a penalty fare merely for entering the CTA, there is no need to have travelled. But on the tram network the offence does not apply unless you got off a tram.

But imagine if you are waiting for someone outside their house, and a tram arrives. If the tram RPIs are anything like some of the RPIs I've seen and heard of in the London area (not up North; we're civilised here!) then it would not at all surprise me if that person could be accused of exiting from a tram and it would be their word against an RPI, and Courts may incorrectly believe that all RPIs tell the truth all of the time. I'd hope not, but I have concerns.

Penalty Fare schemes are open to abuse by a minority of rogue RPIs. I know; I've seen it and heard about it.
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Old 18th January 2012, 01:25   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
South West Trains do not have any Compulsory Ticket Areas (CTAs) last time I checked. For example there is a CTA at Clapham Junction but that's the Overground platform only, as far as I know.

I was shocked in Croydon when I discovered that it is impossible to enter some houses without entering a CTA. Anyone who lives at the houses affected appears to be technically committing an offence whenever they step outside their drive.
I'm not convinced.

I suspect that a right of access or a presumed right of access would trump the railway by-laws/ penalty fare regulations in a situation like this.

Still it's quite an oddity.
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Old 18th January 2012, 01:28   #13
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So getting back to

Section 24(of National Rail Byelaw): Enforcement

(1) Offence and level of fines
Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and,
with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a
penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale

Why is Byelaw 17 excluded from Enforcement?
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Old 18th January 2012, 01:31   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
I was shocked in Croydon when I discovered that it is impossible to enter some houses without entering a CTA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
I don't think the roads are, but the pavements are.
I think the explanation for this may lie in the definition of Compulsory Ticket Area.
Quote:
London Tramlink - Conditions of Travel

3 Explanation of terms

Compulsory ticket area - Generally, all trams and, for passengers alighting from trams, the tram stop platforms themselves.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...conditions.pdf
It seems that the tram stop platforms are Compulsory ticket areas only for people alighting from trams.
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Old 18th January 2012, 01:31   #15
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Ah, so the pavement is a tram stop (so I was right the first time, their house opens onto a platform )

Legally, the pavement is a right of way that can't be extinguished, and this law certainly overrides the CTA byelaws.

(The same way that when they upgrade bits of the A1 to A1(M) they have to provide a parallel local road—motorways aren't rights of way. This is also why the A34 and the like aren't motorways.)
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