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Old 13th April 2012, 15:18   #31
jcollins
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Originally Posted by Ferret View Post
I think they are displayed on every tram though, so if I'm right about that, I can't see how that line of argument can be successful.
On the tram is a bit late, the tram may leave before you have time to alight and purchase a ticket after noticing it. Although, not a valid excuse to get to Bury from Piccadilly without a ticket but an excuse for alighting at Piccadilly Gardens with no ticket and then purchasing one before continuing to Bury.
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Old 13th April 2012, 15:19   #32
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The fine notices are prominently displayed. He passed a ticket machine, which he noticed and recalls the position of, but decided to try his luck. He thought he might get a free trip and ended up with a very expensive one. It really couldn't be a fairer cop.
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Old 13th April 2012, 16:22   #33
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Originally Posted by jcollins View Post
On the tram is a bit late, the tram may leave before you have time to alight and purchase a ticket after noticing it. Although, not a valid excuse to get to Bury from Piccadilly without a ticket but an excuse for alighting at Piccadilly Gardens with no ticket and then purchasing one before continuing to Bury.
It seems to be prominently displayed at the stations on the Metrolink I've used too!

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Old 13th April 2012, 16:28   #34
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It seems to be prominently displayed at the stations on the Metrolink I've used too!
I wasn't trying to suggest that it's not advertised but pointing out that there's a possibility if a poster at Piccadilly had fallen down or got hidden (for instance some maintenance equipment had been put in front of it) then it may not have been obvious to a one-off user.
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Old 13th April 2012, 16:47   #35
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I wasn't trying to suggest that it's not advertised but pointing out that there's a possibility if a poster at Piccadilly had fallen down or got hidden (for instance some maintenance equipment had been put in front of it) then it may not have been obvious to a one-off user.
Clutching at straws though?

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Old 13th April 2012, 18:03   #36
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Woah, there have been a torrent of replies!

I'll clear up the main things here.

Sheffield tram service (until now) has been then only tram service I have used.

I am from Congleton. You can buy a ticket onboard or after the journey on all trains running through Congleton.
The reason I am so used to paying on the train is because the ticket office is almost always closed in Congleton.

No, I did not see the ticket machine and 'try to get a free journey', the tram was waiting at the stop and without hesitation, I jumped on. I would like to add here that I am both used to buses (pay on board) and trains where I pay on board so why on Earth would the thought pop in to my mind that I might have to pay before?
To clarify as well, if I am standing in front of the tram doors before boarding, the ticket machine is in no way close to being visible. Only if I turn to 4 or 5 o'clock would I be able to see it. It truly is in an awkward place unless you know what you are doing.

I had the money to pay for a ticket otherwise I would not have boarded.

Yes I saw the ticket machine, this was once the doors had closed so I must have literally got on as it was about to leave.

I had considered getting off at another station to buy a ticket but two things stopped me:
1. I was assuring myself that I would be able to purchase one on the tram and if not, I would be honest with the guys at the other end and tell them where I boarded to buy one there. Honesty is usually key but apparently this is a simple case of some people ruining it for the rest of us. The 'some people I refer to as the dishonest ones causing this distrust from the company.
2. I was in a hurry to make an interview and as I had never used the trams in Manchester before, I did not want to risk being late. Trains from Manchester to Congleton come once an hour and if trams are in any way similar, I would be screwed.

Finally, if I had walked past a ticket machine, I would have bought one. It really is as simple as that. If any of this has come across a bit rude, I apologize. As you can imagine it is stressful enough without being blatantly accused of lying as well.

You guys have been fantastic, thanks again

Last edited by NAM_killer; 13th April 2012 at 19:04.
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Old 13th April 2012, 19:24   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAM_killer View Post
To clarify as well, if I am standing in front of the tram doors before boarding, the ticket machine is in no way close to being visible. Only if I turn to 4 or 5 o'clock would I be able to see it. It truly is in an awkward place unless you know what you are doing.
I agree with this statement, however there are at least four ticket machines on the platform at Piccadilly AFAIK and it would be rather silly to position them anywhere else than against the wall, don't you agree?

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1. I was assuring myself that I would be able to purchase one on the tram and if not, I would be honest with the guys at the other end and tell them where I boarded to buy one there. Honesty is usually key but apparently this is a simple case of some people ruining it for the rest of us. The 'some people I refer to as the dishonest ones causing this distrust from the company.
You can't just assume that you can purchase the ticket on the tram, especially after you notice that the tram does not have conductors.

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2. I was in a hurry to make an interview and as I had never used the trams in Manchester before, I did not want to risk being late. Trains from Manchester to Congleton come once an hour and if trams are in any way similar, I would be screwed.
To be honest, if this really is the case then I think you ought to have planned for the day a bit better, including finding out information such as service frequency, routes, etc.

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Finally, if I had walked past a ticket machine, I would have bought one. It really is as simple as that.
I know you might not think this is what happened, but that was exactly what you did, although maybe unintentionally.

I echo the comments from many above me that you would be best off paying the 50 and have it over and done with. The chance of an appeal succeeding is almost NIL here and could only make things worse if you fail to pay within 14 days.

It has been a very expensive lesson and I wish you luck in the future.
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Old 13th April 2012, 22:21   #38
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If it was another stop it would be understandable, but at the bottom of the escalator at Piccadilly is a sign taking up half the wall telling you to buuy before boarding. Its impossible not to see it going down as its directly opposite at eye level as you descend.

edit:

Sign on left, advertising board on right has been removed since this photo taken


Last edited by WatcherZero; 13th April 2012 at 22:34.
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Old 14th April 2012, 00:48   #39
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I agree with this statement, however there are at least four ticket machines on the platform at Piccadilly AFAIK and it would be rather silly to position them anywhere else than against the wall, don't you agree?

Actually, no, ticket machines in normal places are infront of platforms, not hidden round the corner.

You can't just assume that you can purchase the ticket on the tram, especially after you notice that the tram does not have conductors.

As said before I had no reason to think otherwise since that is all I know. Also the tram was there as I arrived on the platform so I got on immediately and the doors shut behind me. No time to react.

To be honest, if this really is the case then I think you ought to have planned for the day a bit better, including finding out information such as service frequency, routes, etc.

Yes this is true, but the damage has been done now.

I know you might not think this is what happened, but that was exactly what you did, although maybe unintentionally.

I echo the comments from many above me that you would be best off paying the 50 and have it over and done with. The chance of an appeal succeeding is almost NIL here and could only make things worse if you fail to pay within 14 days.

It has been a very expensive lesson and I wish you luck in the future.
An expensive lesson indeed. Like I said I'll just have to pay it, it is a shame that the honest customers get screwed because of the dishonest ones but hey, nothing can be done now I guess!

Thanks again for your advice

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Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
If it was another stop it would be understandable, but at the bottom of the escalator at Piccadilly is a sign taking up half the wall telling you to buuy before boarding. Its impossible not to see it going down as its directly opposite at eye level as you descend.

edit:

Sign on left, advertising board on right has been removed since this photo taken

Other than showing me a sign that I now know was there and didn't see, I don't see your reason for posting that... Thanks anyway I'll keep an eye out for it next time I guess.
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Old 14th April 2012, 01:14   #40
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Railway ticket offices can't sell tram only tickets, they can't assume you don't know you have to buy a ticket before travelling on the tram and unless you tell them, they can't know that you don't know. They also know there are signs (even if you didn't see them) to say you need to buy a ticket before boarding (they should be on the trams also).

I can't see an appeal being successful and I would advise paying up.
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Old 14th April 2012, 06:35   #41
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An expensive lesson indeed. Like I said I'll just have to pay it, it is a shame that the honest customers get screwed because of the dishonest ones but hey, nothing can be done now I guess!
So had you got all the way to Bury without seeing a ticket inspector you would have bought a ticket on alighting? You wouldn't have seen it as a free ride and got on with your day?
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Old 14th April 2012, 11:08   #42
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So had you got all the way to Bury without seeing a ticket inspector you would have bought a ticket on alighting? You wouldn't have seen it as a free ride and got on with your day?
I would have bought it from the machine when I arrived.

Better to be safe than sorry, you never know what could happen on the return journey and also if there could be ones stationed upstairs.

The same thing has happened before on a train to Manchester Piccadilly from Congleton and I could have easily walked past the 'ticket inspector' but instead I walked up to one with the ticket machine to buy a ticket. At least northern rail appreciate honesty. I guess I can understand why the tram guys don't though considering how many people must try to dodge the fares.
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Old 14th April 2012, 11:34   #43
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Originally Posted by NAM_killer View Post
I would have bought it from the machine when I arrived.

Better to be safe than sorry, you never know what could happen on the return journey and also if there could be ones stationed upstairs.

The same thing has happened before on a train to Manchester Piccadilly from Congleton and I could have easily walked past the 'ticket inspector' but instead I walked up to one with the ticket machine to buy a ticket. At least northern rail appreciate honesty. I guess I can understand why the tram guys don't though considering how many people must try to dodge the fares.
I'm afraid it's not down to the discretion of the inspectors, it's down to the Conditions of Carriage of each operator. Northern Rail doesn't have penalty fares and you are technically allowed to board a train without a ticket (providing you have the intention to buy one), so guards and inspectors will sell you a ticket if you don't have one or report you for prosecution (providing they have the ability to do so) if they feel strongly that you are explicitly trying to dodge fares.

Metrolink, which isn't a rail operator, states that all passengers MUST have a valid ticket before getting on a tram. Simple as that. If the inspectors catch someone without a ticket after they passed a ticket machine, they will issue a "Standard Fare" (and they won't take any excuses). They are instructed to do this.

Last edited by WestCoast; 14th April 2012 at 11:44.
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Old 14th April 2012, 13:13   #44
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I'm afraid it's not down to the discretion of the inspectors, it's down to the Conditions of Carriage of each operator. Northern Rail doesn't have penalty fares and you are technically allowed to board a train without a ticket (providing you have the intention to buy one), so guards and inspectors will sell you a ticket if you don't have one or report you for prosecution (providing they have the ability to do so) if they feel strongly that you are explicitly trying to dodge fares.

Metrolink, which isn't a rail operator, states that all passengers MUST have a valid ticket before getting on a tram. Simple as that. If the inspectors catch someone without a ticket after they passed a ticket machine, they will issue a "Standard Fare" (and they won't take any excuses). They are instructed to do this.
Ah fair enough, thanks for the info
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Old 14th April 2012, 22:14   #45
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If it was another stop it would be understandable, but at the bottom of the escalator at Piccadilly is a sign taking up half the wall telling you to buuy before boarding. Its impossible not to see it going down as its directly opposite at eye level as you descend.

Sign on left, advertising board on right has been removed since this photo taken
I was just going to mention the sign, which is infact the biggest on the entire Metrolink network. Beaten to it by Mr Watcher

50 isn't bad compared to some place. Tenerife is €400

Correct ticket should have been (origin) to Bury MTLK, a ticket sold at every UK Station and on every conductor's ticket machine.

(That's a matchday, as the PSR by the fire exit has an ol' Almex machine)
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