[merlodlliw]

Originally Posted by John55

I am interested in this topic but had not heard that there was a funded proposal to extend electrification beyond Ellesmere Port. Can you point me in the direction of information about this so I can do some more research?

There have been proposals (often from organisations who did not have to pay!) for extending the third rail from Rock Ferry to most railways on the south Wirral since 1928 but it took a very long time for any of it to come to pass. This one however is new to me and I would be interested in more information.

PS. I think you mean arcing from the third rail. Flashover is usually used to describe an equipment fault. Still has potential for ignition however.

Indeed arcing is correct the potential for ignition, also known to some as as flash overs , I am not able to guide you to the paperwork as its 30 years ago, but ill try & find it,the proposal was Hooton to Helsby, with large slices of Euro funding available. It was then watered down Hooton to Chester & Hooton to Ellesmere Port after the Shell problem arose.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Originally Posted by tbtc

Jings! Crivvens!

No criticism of the Mods intended (I'm one on another forum, I appreciate its a thankless task) - I was just confused as I was pretty sure I'd already answered the point about the Warrington service - maybe I was sleep-posting again?

Anyhow, to go back on topic, this short stretch of line seems destined never to get much of a better service, it's stuck between three TOCs (Northern, Merseyrail & ATW), it doesn't really serve any large population centres, it's not much use for the one thing at Ellesmere Port that would attract visitors (Cheshire Oaks), I can't see it getting much of an increase in service whilst Cheshire - Warrington/Manchester seems to be poorly resourced (so any spare DMUs in the area would be better concentrated on services via Chester).

March of the Mods, yes it must be a thankless task.Must have put that up after a glass of red wine

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Originally Posted by John55

I am interested in this topic but had not heard that there was a funded proposal to extend electrification beyond Ellesmere Port. Can you point me in the direction of information about this so I can do some more research?

There have been proposals (often from organisations who did not have to pay!) for extending the third rail from Rock Ferry to most railways on the south Wirral since 1928 but it took a very long time for any of it to come to pass. This one however is new to me and I would be interested in more information.

PS. I think you mean arcing from the third rail. Flashover is usually used to describe an equipment fault. Still has potential for ignition however.

Indeed arcing is correct the potential for ignition, also known to some as as flash overs I am not able to guide you to the paperwork as its 30 years ago, but ill try & find it,the proposal was Hooton to Helsby, with large slices of Euro

Bob funding available. It was then watered down Hooton to Chester & Hooton to Ellesmere Port after the Shell problem.

[SprinterMan]

There are many other "ghost" lines like this in the North:
Moorthorpe - Sherburn-in-Elmet via Pontefract Baghill
Knottingley - Goole
Clitheroe - Hellifield
Stockport - Stalybridge direct
Retford - Barnetby via Brigg
Morecambe - Heysham Port
(Have I missed any)

It is a shame but Helsby-Ellesmere Port is just another one of these lines, all deserve a better service, and when the pacers are replaced lets hope enough stock is ordered to give them all a better service.

[Green Lane]

Originally Posted by SprinterMan

It is a shame but Helsby-Ellesmere Port is just another one of these lines, all deserve a better service, and when the pacers are replaced lets hope enough stock is ordered to give them all a better service.

Since I've registered on here, I've seen several threads started on the Helsby-Ellesmere Port section of line, some of which I have previously participated in. There are quite possibly even more that I've not seen, given that I can often go weeks or months without visiting this forum.

So I also have to ask myself what is it about this 5-mile section of track that relatively speaking generates so much interest? I myself have to admit since riding on it a while back, I can't seem to drop my fascination with it either.

There is after all the aforementioned bus service shadowing the route of this underused line, but however, I would still prefer to make the journey by train.

Perhaps partly it's because in a way it is such a regrettable missed opportunity that the original plan of 3rd-rail electrification to Helsby never happened. This would have been so "sweet", as others have mentioned having ongoing connections to both Liverpool and Manchester from the southern banks of the Mersey Basin.

The way it is now, it's almost like having a jigsaw puzzle that's missing a piece and the urge to see it completed is overwhelming.

Of course I understand fully previously-discussed the reasons why we have the current situation. Still, there's something I really like about the line. Perhaps it's the unique "scenery" of passing through the rather large Stanlow Oil refinery on an embankment.

Has to be said I do have the urge to go on the line again at next opportunity. Certainly, if there was a more regular service, I know I would travel the line more frequently, as an enthusiast. But, as for the general public, it's difficult to see how viable it would be. A connection ultimately from Ellesmere Port in the direction of Warrington/Manchester would be useful to some people I'm sure. I've also seen the overcrowding on the Warrington-Helsby stretch. Anything to alleviate that would be good.

I do remain hopeful that in the future the Ellesmer Port-Helsby stretch of track can somehow see a useful passenger service restored.

For years, I had always wondered what these "mysterious" stations "Ince & Elton" and "Stanlow & Thronton" looked like. While the parliamentary service exists, they continue retain an air of mystique for some people on the Wirral, who otherwise have no good excuse to go there. Perhaps this has something to do with their presence on the Merseyrail map. I've since visited both on foot and in a passing train. Anyway my point is, there'll probably more post/threads on this line in the future as it continues to intrigue people for all sorts of reasons.

[D1009]

Originally Posted by Green Lane

Anyway my point is, there'll probably more post/threads on this line in the future as it continues to intrigue people for all sorts of reasons.

I have a soft spot for it as it's a line I remember from childhood, when Hooton had 7 platforms and the Helsby service was worked by an ex LMS or BR standard 2-6-2 tank with a push-pull set from the bay !

[tbtc]

I think that the "fascination" stems from this short line sticking out like a sore thumb (between three TOCs, not really fitting into any of them) - we enthusiasts spend more time talking about oddities (Class 13s, Staleybridge - Stockport etc) than the "norm" (e.g. there aren't *that* many threads about the three Southern Region TOCs, considering the amount of passengers/ trains they have).

However...

Originally Posted by SprinterMan

There are many other "ghost" lines like this in the North:
Moorthorpe - Sherburn-in-Elmet via Pontefract Baghill
Knottingley - Goole
Clitheroe - Hellifield
Stockport - Stalybridge direct
Retford - Barnetby via Brigg
Morecambe - Heysham Port
(Have I missed any)

Originally Posted by Green Lane

the parliamentary service exists

...I wouldn't consider Helsby - Ellesmere Port to be a Parliamentary service - four trains a day (six days a week) is a lot better than a lot of branch lines get. Its not as good as the other services at Helsby or Ellesmere Port of course.

[Green Lane]

Originally Posted by tbtc

...I wouldn't consider Helsby - Ellesmere Port to be a Parliamentary service - four trains a day (six days a week) is a lot better than a lot of branch lines get. Its not as good as the other services at Helsby or Ellesmere Port of course.

It is a good point you make. Indeed I should have more accurately used the phrase "infrequent service". It's true these stations are no "Reddish South" and it's not a "Chester to Runcorn" scenario. But your point makes me wonder then how far they could legally reduce the Helsby - Ellesmere Port services and of course why do they keep the current service of four trains a day, even though the times are generally considered to not be particularly useful? Presumably the current times just happen to fit in conveniently with movement of the involved train to/from other adjacent services? EDIT: I seem to remember these points may have been answered on here previosuly.

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by Green Lane

It is a good point you make. Indeed I should have more accurately used the phrase "infrequent service". It's true these stations are no "Reddish South" and it's not a "Chester to Runcorn" scenario. But your point makes me wonder then how far they could legally reduce the Helsby - Ellesmere Port services and of course why do they keep the current service of four trains a day, even though the times are generally considered to not be particularly useful? Presumably the current times just happen to fit in conveniently with movement of the involved train to/from other adjacent services? EDIT: I seem to remember these points may have been answered on here previosuly.

You make an interesting point.

The minimum service proscribed in the franchise may well be four a day, I don't know, but there must be *something* on this line to justify more than just a "once a week" service.

Okay, another way to look at it - what would be the core demand on this line? Towards Manchester (and Warrington)? Or towards Liverpool (and Birkenhead)? What would be the bigger market (to tailor demand around)?

[Cheshire Rover]

I believe that the third rail expansion to Helsby was stopped due to the proximity of a gas plant close to the track. This plant has long since been closed. Indeed, steam charters still travel this line on occasion. Of course, the budget to undertake an expansion is long gone. However, I do believe there would be demand for a direct route fromHelsby to Liverpool, via a third rail expansion or via the Halton Curve. In recent years, more and more commuters have been using the station for commutes to Manchester and I am sure that should a route be available, the same would apply to a Liverpool run. It is not just Helsby folk that use the station, outlying villages do to. Unfortunately though I wouldn't expect things to change soon.

[Green Lane]

Originally Posted by tbtc

what would be the core demand on this line? Towards Manchester (and Warrington)? Or towards Liverpool (and Birkenhead)? What would be the bigger market (to tailor demand around)?

I couldn't really say without wild speculation. Geographically, the line is nearer to Liverpool than Manchester, but still the Mersey estuary has to be crossed at some point and for South Liverpool, the Merseyrail lines are really going the long way round. From friends I know from Ellesmere Port, I find there are also connections with Manchester too, perhaps thanks to the M56. So to me it seems that both cities could be considered important from this location.

I suppose the situation is not unlike people living in Rainford or Orrell say on the Kirkby branch, who can go to either Liverpool or Manchester via an hourly service, I'm sure it's handy to have either option from those places further to the north. Where that route has Wigan, this route has Warrington, so it is almost analogous.

An important difference is though, that in the case of Ellesmere Port & Helsby, Chester is so close by and invariably has a much higher demand, so the regular service going that way already exists. Making the Ellesmere Port route appear somewhat superfluous in the grand scheme of things.

[frodshamfella]

Originally Posted by Green Lane

Since I've registered on here, I've seen several threads started on the Helsby-Ellesmere Port section of line, some of which I have previously participated in. There are quite possibly even more that I've not seen, given that I can often go weeks or months without visiting this forum.

So I also have to ask myself what is it about this 5-mile section of track that relatively speaking generates so much interest? I myself have to admit since riding on it a while back, I can't seem to drop my fascination with it either.

There is after all the aforementioned bus service shadowing the route of this underused line, but however, I would still prefer to make the journey by train.

Perhaps partly it's because in a way it is such a regrettable missed opportunity that the original plan of 3rd-rail electrification to Helsby never happened. This would have been so "sweet", as others have mentioned having ongoing connections to both Liverpool and Manchester from the southern banks of the Mersey Basin.

The way it is now, it's almost like having a jigsaw puzzle that's missing a piece and the urge to see it completed is overwhelming.

Of course I understand fully previously-discussed the reasons why we have the current situation. Still, there's something I really like about the line. Perhaps it's the unique "scenery" of passing through the rather large Stanlow Oil refinery on an embankment.

Has to be said I do have the urge to go on the line again at next opportunity. Certainly, if there was a more regular service, I know I would travel the line more frequently, as an enthusiast. But, as for the general public, it's difficult to see how viable it would be. A connection ultimately from Ellesmere Port in the direction of Warrington/Manchester would be useful to some people I'm sure. I've also seen the overcrowding on the Warrington-Helsby stretch. Anything to alleviate that would be good.

I do remain hopeful that in the future the Ellesmer Port-Helsby stretch of track can somehow see a useful passenger service restored.

For years, I had always wondered what these "mysterious" stations "Ince & Elton" and "Stanlow & Thronton" looked like. While the parliamentary service exists, they continue retain an air of mystique for some people on the Wirral, who otherwise have no good excuse to go there. Perhaps this has something to do with their presence on the Merseyrail map. I've since visited both on foot and in a passing train. Anyway my point is, there'll probably more post/threads on this line in the future as it continues to intrigue people for all sorts of reasons.

I live quite local to the E.port-Helsby line, and even i find it hard to take a ride on it, due to the service levels, but I do when I can. To be frank not for any real reason, just because it intrigues me. It almost because I think it could be oh so much more for the local communities, and maybe one day it will, lets hope it lasts until then. I for one will still go up and down it from time to time

[Polarbear]

It's a pity that money couldn't be found for a short extra bit of line from about where this line goes under the M53, to Cheshire Oaks. That would give the line a sizeable destination that would attract people from further afield than the immediate locale.

If also plugged into the Merseyrail network, it would be a major boost for that TOC too.

It's about 2.5 miles from Ellesmere Port station to Cheshire Oaks.

Just a thought?

[frodshamfella]

Polarbear has a good point, if the line could serve Cheshire Oaks, it would be very useful. I wonder why Northern Rail has this service, I would have thought I would have gone to Merseyrail, they use diesels on their Cityline to St Helens, Wigan, Preston and Manchester Victoria ? Incidently I dont know about Helsby Station, but at Frodsham Station, there is no advertised timing for any stations along the Helsby-Ellesmere Port line, even though there are some direct trains.Will have to check if its advertised at Helsby. Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby all now have electric destination indicators in place, even on the Ellesmere Port Branch platforms at Helsby.

[frodshamfella]

Leave Helsby towards Warrington, joining North Wales line Helsby Station.jpg

[John55]

Originally Posted by frodshamfella

Polarbear has a good point, if the line could serve Cheshire Oaks, it would be very useful. I wonder why Northern Rail has this service, I would have thought I would have gone to Merseyrail, they use diesels on their Cityline to St Helens, Wigan, Preston and Manchester Victoria ? Incidently I dont know about Helsby Station, but at Frodsham Station, there is no advertised timing for any stations along the Helsby-Ellesmere Port line, even though there are some direct trains.Will have to check if its advertised at Helsby. Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby all now have electric destination indicators in place, even on the Ellesmere Port Branch platforms at Helsby.

Careful there are two Merseyrails.

1 Merseyrail - the franchise/concession which run electric trains.

2 Merseyrail - all train services sponsored by the Merseyside ITA. This includes the electrics plus the diesel services out of Lime St to Wigan/Newton-le-Willows/Warrington etc which are run by Northern.

Hooton to Helsby is outside the ITA area so they will only put money into the line if it is of overall benefit to the in county network. Electrifying from Hooton to Ellesmere Port & Chester was partially paid for by the PTA/ITA although outside their area as it reduced the overall cost of running the network.

Northern runs the service because the diesel service from Rock Ferry or Hooton or Ellesmere Port to Helsby and Chester was always run by a separate organisation even in BR days. Nowadays there is no one to run it except as a extension to another service so why not Northern.

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by Green Lane

I couldn't really say without wild speculation. Geographically, the line is nearer to Liverpool than Manchester, but still the Mersey estuary has to be crossed at some point and for South Liverpool, the Merseyrail lines are really going the long way round. From friends I know from Ellesmere Port, I find there are also connections with Manchester too, perhaps thanks to the M56. So to me it seems that both cities could be considered important from this location.

I suppose the situation is not unlike people living in Rainford or Orrell say on the Kirkby branch, who can go to either Liverpool or Manchester via an hourly service, I'm sure it's handy to have either option from those places further to the north. Where that route has Wigan, this route has Warrington, so it is almost analogous.

An important difference is though, that in the case of Ellesmere Port & Helsby, Chester is so close by and invariably has a much higher demand, so the regular service going that way already exists. Making the Ellesmere Port route appear somewhat superfluous in the grand scheme of things.

I've thought about this and I think that the better market would be towards Manchester.

Logic being:

• The biggest place on the line is Ellesmere Port (which already has a half hourly Liverpool service), so there are more in Ellesmere Port to go to Manchester than there would be people in Helsby to go to Liverpool
  
• Whilst Chester/ Ellesmere Port to Liverpool is well catered for (six trains per hour in total), the same catchment area has a very poor Manchester service (one an hour via Warrington, plus a slow Pacer that takes a lot longer going via Stockport)
  
• Going to Liverpool has the complication of electrification (and crossing boundaries between TOCs), whilst going to Manchester would be entirely on tracks run by Northern (apart from the short chord between Warrington BQ and the Eccles line?), so would fall into their domain

(no anti-Merseyside agenda, honest)