[snail]

Originally Posted by spargazer

those yellow critters everywhere-stationery

Post-It Notes?

[Rail Bus]

Originally Posted by futureA

Have you ever considered that there are places people might want to get to between Eccles and Manchester City Centre? Same with the city centre and the airport.

The Eccles line is really for connecting the city to Salford Quays which was and still is poorly served by other modes. Extending the line to Eccles was perfectly logical.

The purpose of the airport line is to connect various districts of South Manchester that are geographically isolated. Since the airport is a massive employer in the area it makes sense for trams to serve it.

I realise that many members of this site can hardly contain their anti-tram bais, but please come up with better reasons why trams are bad next time.

90% of passengers on the Altrincham line travel into central Manchester - and their journeys are now slower and more unreliable than they were 20 years ago

The Altrincham line has always been a commuter route for Manchester - I understand what you say about the Eccles and Airport routes - but this is not the case with Altrincham and I presume Bury

Light rail should be in addition to heavy rail not a replacement for it (unsuitable for Altrincham line)

[MattE2010]

Originally Posted by Rail Bus

Light rail should be in addition to heavy rail not a replacement for it (unsuitable for Altrincham line)

Very true. It should serve where heavy rail can't feasibly reach - Salford Quays, and places like Didsbury and Ashton via the suburbs; indeed, anything like the Sheffield and Nottingham networks. Unless there are serious problems or substantial benefits then I don't think converting heavy rail is correct.

[futureA]

Originally Posted by Rail Bus

90% of passengers on the Altrincham line travel into central Manchester - and their journeys are now slower and more unreliable than they were 20 years ago

The Altrincham line has always been a commuter route for Manchester - I understand what you say about the Eccles and Airport routes - but this is not the case with Altrincham and I presume Bury

Light rail should be in addition to heavy rail not a replacement for it (unsuitable for Altrincham line)

I use the Altrincham line every day and I really don't see how trams are 'unsuitable' at all. There are massive improvements in the pipeline more vehicles, more reliable vehicles and more flexible signalling. Yes, it can get busy in the morning peak, but what transport system isn't at this time?

Are journey times really that much slower than in 1991? It takes me about 15 minutes to get from Sale to St Peters square which is closer to my final destination than Oxford Road or Piccadilly and certainly not slow.

[YorkshireBear]

Originally Posted by MattE2010

Very true. It should serve where heavy rail can't feasibly reach - Salford Quays, and places like Didsbury and Ashton via the suburbs; indeed, anything like the Sheffield and Nottingham networks. Unless there are serious problems or substantial benefits then I don't think converting heavy rail is correct.

The sheffield system works well as like you say it took no heavy rail routes (apart from part of a freight only line that rarely gets used) and just went to areas of the city not served by heavy rail.

This is why i like the idea of tram-trains so much. The european system works excellently, copy that and we have cracked it.

[WatcherZero]

The thing you notice about the Altrincham line is not people going all the way into Manchester, its school kids going only a few stops (though some a fair way). You see the same on the Eccles line but nowhere near as much.

[snail]

Originally Posted by Rail Bus

90% of passengers on the Altrincham line travel into central Manchester

Do you have evidence for this?

How many of those would prefer to walk/bus from Oxford Road or Piccadilly instead of using the tram directly to St Peters Sq, Piccadilly Gardens, Market St, Shudehill or Victoria?

[Class377/5]

Originally Posted by spargazer

the problems with TfGM trams is complex; properly designed bus lanes would are suffice, they are cheaper, flexible, quicker off the drawing board (CAD), and competitive. Runcorn is doing alright

TfGM trams are small, few seats, expensive and are relatively slow esp if your commute is let's say Shaw-Manchester, besides in 4 years time Manchester will be a bottle neck with those yellow critters everywhere-stationery, and the tracks will have to be replaced sometime. Oxford Rd station and Victoria station will be as well. The main object is to move people as quickly and cheaply as possible, so in every respect these trams are failures, except on the Altrincham and Bury Lines, and that is why Stagecoach opted out. The old green ones are really very good. I bet that the No 19 bus from Sale to Manchester Airport, and Tenerife! will be faster than one of those yellow critters.

Oh dear, we better scrap any line that's slow than other means then.

Actual the main point of railways isn't to get there fast as you can but actually connect people to where they are going, which means from home to work, or work to home or home to leisure. Strangely enough these aren't all in the same places.

You do know that trains get the tracks replaced too? So that point it mute.

As for the opition trams are slower. How far was the Oldham loop with pacers? Current drivers training on the trams have reported 20mins Oldham to Monsall. The expected route through the town center will add in about 5mins according to TfGM.

Also you state trams have failed? How? What evidence do you have to support this?

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by futureA

Are journey times really that much slower than in 1991? It takes me about 15 minutes to get from Sale to St Peters square which is closer to my final destination than Oxford Road or Piccadilly and certainly not slow.

The Metrolink times for one of the Altrincham-Bury services is:
Altrincham xx:59 (xx:57 to xx:01)*
Sale xx:07 (xx:05 to xx:09)*
St Peter's Square: xx:23 (xx:21 to xx:25)*

* Trams are allowed to leave 2 minutes early or late to keep even spacing between trams.

The timing for the old EMU stoppers between Altrincham and Deansgate was 19 minutes and between Sale and Deansgate was 11 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Originally Posted by snail

How many of those would prefer to walk/bus from Oxford Road or Piccadilly instead of using the tram directly to St Peters Sq, Piccadilly Gardens, Market St, Shudehill or Victoria?

Sometimes they have to change trams when Metrolink decides to terminate a southbound service short at Timperley so passengers for Altrincham don't always get a direct tram service.

[radamfi]

Originally Posted by Class377/5

As for the opition trams are slower. How far was the Oldham loop with pacers?

My 1 October 1990 Network NorthWest timetable book has the following pattern

Manchester Victoria xx45 xx15
Miles Platting xx48 xx18
Dean Lane xx52 xx22
Failsworth xx55 xx25
Hollinwood xx58 xx28
Oldham Werneth xx02 xx32
Oldham Mumps xx06 xx36

so it used to take 21 minutes all stops, including the now closed Miles Platting. Obviously the half hourly expresses until 2009 were much quicker.

[Class377/5]

Originally Posted by jcollins

Sometimes they have to change trams when Metrolink decides to terminate a southbound service short at Timperley so passengers for Altrincham don't always get a direct tram service.

Something's I'm sure BR terminate a train as well, so why add this?

Originally Posted by radamfi

My 1 October 1990 Network NorthWest timetable book has the following pattern

Manchester Victoria xx45 xx15
Miles Platting xx48 xx18
Dean Lane xx52 xx22
Failsworth xx55 xx25
Hollinwood xx58 xx28
Oldham Werneth xx02 xx32
Oldham Mumps xx06 xx36

so it used to take 21 minutes all stops, including the now closed Miles Platting. Obviously the half hourly expresses until 2009 were much quicker.

Thanks very much so tram won't be that much slow with extra stops.

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by Class377/5

Something's I'm sure BR terminate a train as well, so why add this?

Metrolink do it on a fairly regular basis not on a sometimes basis. If there's a southbound tram that's been caught up by a following tram the first one will almost certainly be terminated short at Timperley.

BR weren't trying to send everything to the same platforms at Navigation Road and Altrincham so congestion was less of a problem.

[snail]

Originally Posted by jcollins

Metrolink do it on a fairly regular basis not on a sometimes basis. If there's a southbound tram that's been caught up by a following tram the first one will almost certainly be terminated short at Timperley.

BR weren't trying to send everything to the same platforms at Navigation Road and Altrincham so congestion was less of a problem.

Note to other readers: This means there are more trams than there were trains.

PS You haven't answered my original question.

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by Class377/5

Thanks very much so tram won't be that much slow with extra stops.

According to Chris Davis MEP:

“Travellers to Manchester from Milnrow, Shaw and Derker will be short-changed by having to use trams that will have longer journey times than the trains they replaced.

“We should certainly keep alive the option of one day using the former rail route but this will only be practical when the tram network has been extended.

“Short-term thinking has been a folly that we should no longer indulge.

“For once, let’s not destroy assets that could be of future use, but let’s have the imagination to consider just how good transport could one day be.”

Originally Posted by snail

Note to other readers: This means there are more trams than there were trains.

Not neccesairly - in the peak there are less trams than there were trains. You only get more trams if you look at the stops which weren't served by the semi-fast trains. Altrincham and Sale lost out both in terms of capacity and frequency by the Metrolink conversion, although the smaller lesser used stops gained as no trams miss them out.

PS You haven't answered my original question.

What question? Do you mean the one you directed at Rail Bus in post 142?

[spargazer]

does anyone remember the status quo song; again and again and again, the men have blocked comments,

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereven...-lines-damaged

also this
http://www.transportforgreatermanche...ce_performance