[142094]

This year is the first for many where the number of deaths on the UK roads has increased, which is probably why this knee-jerk measure has been created.

[jonmorris0844]

Originally Posted by Bungle73

There is a street I used to cycle along in London that was like that

A sign warning of oncoming cyclists? The person in the council that thought this a good idea should be held personally liable for every single accident/death caused by not clearly marking a cycle lane in the opposing direction, ideally with a kerb. It looks like it has been designed deliberately to kill cyclists by making cars move over into their path.

That's truly shocking and I'd be well p**sed off if I cycled down a road where I'd unknowingly been going against a one way street for cars, which would quite legally be able to drive on any side of it.

Originally Posted by Bungle73

the usual "aren't all cyclists terrible" rubbish that keeps getting banded about by a certain group of people.

The 'people' being pedestrians mostly. Which is pretty much every single one of us. We can't all drive a car, train or fly a plane - but we can all walk and any of can also cycle if we so wish.

Anyway, nobody has said all cyclists are terrible - so I'd drop the quotation as it's misleading and also shows that you must have a weak argument if you have to exaggerate an issue to have it taken seriously. However, in London I'd happily say 'most' with the utmost confidence and out here in Hatfield, I'd say 'quite a lot'. Prove me wrong because I have eyes and have seen things from every angle; on foot, on a bike and in a car.

Assuming you're one of the good cyclists (if you cycle at all), you'd not only have no problem with that opinion but would likely agree with it, just like the people on here who actually cycle.

I don't see any problem with slating the bad cyclists to try and improve the situation, instead of just turning it into an argument whereby you let every bad cyclist off with the flawed comparison that a bad motorist can do more damage.

[Ivo]

One day a couple of weeks ago I was almost hit by five cyclists in as many minutes. None of them hit me in the end, but only because I have good hearing (a blessing given my other senses aren't exactly perfect). In each of these cases, I was walking down a street in the centre of Bath with pedestrians aplenty. I would be willing to bet £20 that at least one person was hit (or rather, I would if it could be proven one way or the other!).

Oh, and um, all this cycling stuff doesn't belong in this thread. But you all knew that. So, to change it so that it does belong here, I've changed the title.

[Bungle73]

Originally Posted by jonmorris0844

A sign warning of oncoming cyclists? The person in the council that thought this a good idea should be held personally liable for every single accident/death caused by not clearly marking a cycle lane in the opposing direction, ideally with a kerb. It looks like it has been designed deliberately to kill cyclists by making cars move over into their path.

There were signs saying it was two for cyclists. To be honest if a car driver can't even be bothered take notice of signs that are clearly displayed in a quiet road like that they shouldn't even by on the road.

The 'people' being pedestrians mostly. Which is pretty much every single one of us. We can't all drive a car, train or fly a plane - but we can all walk and any of can also cycle if we so wish.

The people being motorists.

Anyway, nobody has said all cyclists are terrible - so I'd drop the quotation as it's misleading and also shows that you must have a weak argument if you have to exaggerate an issue to have it taken seriously. However, in London I'd happily say 'most' with the utmost confidence and out here in Hatfield, I'd say 'quite a lot'. Prove me wrong because I have eyes and have seen things from every angle; on foot, on a bike and in a car.

It's not "misleading". It's the general vibe going on here. I've seen it time and time again when the subject of cyclists comes up on forums and newspaper comment pages: all cyclists are terrible and shouldn't be on the road. Then they usually start with "road tax" (which doesn't exist) argument.

This thread wasn't even about cyclists, but as soon as they are brought up all hell breaks loose.

Assuming you're one of the good cyclists (if you cycle at all), you'd not only have no problem with that opinion but would likely agree with it, just like the people on here who actually cycle.

I don't see any problem with slating the bad cyclists to try and improve the situation, instead of just turning it into an argument whereby you let every bad cyclist off with the flawed comparison that a bad motorist can do more damage.

I do cycle, and I've seen some bad cyclists, but I also see a lot of bad other road users.

[jonmorris0844]

Originally Posted by Bungle73

It's not "misleading". It's the general vibe going on here. I've seen it time and time again when the subject of cyclists comes up on forums and newspaper comment pages: all cyclists are terrible and shouldn't be on the road. Then they usually start with "road tax" (which doesn't exist) argument.

This thread wasn't even about cyclists, but as soon as they are brought up all hell breaks loose.

I do cycle, and I've seen some bad cyclists, but I also see a lot of bad other road users.

Hang on. It bloody well IS misleading because nobody has said that.. and you can't just say 'vibe' as it's insulting and offensive because you're claiming I (and others) have rounded up every single cyclist as being terrible. I think you ought to retract that comment and stop continuing to repeat it over and over to hope it becomes true.

I totally agree about the road tax bit, but that was quickly dealt with. If only it was easy to get all cyclists to obey the law!

Ever stopped to wonder why so many people who moan about (some) cyclists do so? Could it be because there's actually truth in it?

And how do you define a motorist? Someone who only ever drives a car and doesn't know what it's like to cycle or walk on the street? Isn't that a bit of a generalisation? Chances are anyone who drives can and does do the others too and can see things from multiple views.

Bad cyclists however seem to think that bad drivers cancels out their illegal and wholly dangerous activities. As I've said before, the person most likely to kill me or seriously injure me when I'm out walking is a cyclist NOT a motorist. I can see motorists and they're mostly predictable, which is more than can be said of (some) cyclists.

To me, you're either trolling or have a bee in your bonnet as you've possibly broken one or two laws when cycling and don't see the problem - and so you're on the defensive and wanting to make it clear that cycling offences aren't important because car drivers are worse. Let's include rapists and murderers next, huh?

[Bungle73]

Originally Posted by jonmorris0844

Hang on. It bloody well IS misleading because nobody has said that

Did I say anyone here said it? No I don't think I did. Like I said it's the vibe I'm getting.

.. and you can't just say 'vibe' as it's insulting and offensive

Um, no it's not. It's a statement of the feeling I get from the reponses in this thread. Like I said, I've seen it all before.

because you're claiming I (and others) have rounded up every single cyclist as being terrible. I think you ought to retract that comment and stop continuing to repeat it over and over to hope it becomes true.

I'm retracting nothing. This thread was about speed limits in narrow country roads, but then it turned into an anti-cyclist propaganda machine. This is what I object to.

I totally agree about the road tax bit, but that was quickly dealt with. If only it was easy to get all cyclists to obey the law!

Maybe they will when everyone else does.

Ever stopped to wonder why so many people who moan about (some) cyclists do so? Could it be because there's actually truth in it?

Because a lot of motorists have a bee in their bonnet about cyclists.

And how do you define a motorist? Someone who only ever drives a car and doesn't know what it's like to cycle or walk on the street? Isn't that a bit of a generalisation? Chances are anyone who drives can and does do the others too and can see things from multiple views.

The only point of view a lot of motorists consider is thier own. Most have no idea what it's like to cycle with traffic.

Bad cyclists however seem to think that bad drivers cancels out their illegal and wholly dangerous activities. As I've said before, the person most likely to kill me or seriously injure me when I'm out walking is a cyclist NOT a motorist. I can see motorists and they're mostly predictable, which is more than can be said of (some) cyclists.

The number of people killed or injured by cars far outstrips those by cycles.

To me, you're either trolling or have a bee in your bonnet as you've possibly broken one or two laws when cycling and don't see the problem - and so you're on the defensive and wanting to make it clear that cycling offences aren't important because car drivers are worse. Let's include rapists and murderers next, huh?

It's funny how defending one's position is seen by some as "trolling".

And for your information I try to obey all the rules of the road when I cycle.

[EM2]

I spend more time as a pedestrian than as a driver or cyclist in London, and I am afraid that the experiences put forward by Jon, West Coast etc. are more along the experiences I have had.
One night, on a nine-mile journey by car, I made a mental count of all the cyclists I saw, and how many were doing *something* wrong, whether that was riding on the pavement, riding with no lights, jumping a red light etc. There were sixty-three cyclists on that journey, and forty-one of them were doing one or more of the above.
I have nearly hit a number of cyclists with no lights, even no reflectors. With no light or high-viz clothing. With sunglasses on in the dark. With headphones on. Who don't signal when turning or changing lanes.
I have had an argument after my wife was almost hit by a cyclist at a pedestrian crossing (when we were crossing on a green man).

Yes, more pedestrians and cyclists are injured by cars than by cyclists, because there are simply more of them. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if a pedestrian on a crossing hit by a car at 20mph, is actually a lot less likely to be badly injured than being hit by a cyslist at the same speed.

[90019]

Originally Posted by Bungle73

This thread was about speed limits in narrow country roads, but then it turned into an anti-cyclist propaganda machine.

Anti-cyclist propoganda, from members who are cyclists.
Not quite sure I follow you on that one.

Originally Posted by Bungle73

Maybe they will when everyone else does.

Ah, so because other people do something, it's ok for others to do it too.
Thanks for that, I'm just off out to go burgle some houses - it's illegal, but other people do it, so it must be fine.

Originally Posted by Bungle73

The only point of view a lot of motorists consider is thier own.

Some motorists are like that, yes. But then so are plenty of cyclists, so it's something of a moot point with regards to your argument.

Originally Posted by Bungle73

Most have no idea what it's like to cycle with traffic.

I doubt many cyclists have any idea what it's like to drive a large vehicle on the roads with cyclists.

Originally Posted by Bungle73

The number of people killed or injured by cars far outstrips those by cycles.

So we should just ignore all the cyclists who break the law because they kill less people?

Originally Posted by Bungle73

And for your information I try to obey all the rules of the road when I cycle.

So why are you defending those who don't?

[WestCoast]

Originally Posted by Bungle73

an anti-cyclist propaganda machine. This is what I object to.

Hardly. Don't confuse this thread with rants in the Evening Standard or whatever. I am an occasional cyclist myself and my perspective is about cyclists and pedestrians. Cyclists interact directly with pedestrians if they are on pavements/footpaths and I have all too often seen too little care and discipline on walkways. Sometimes these are places where cyclists shouldn't even be! It's a minority of cyclists in most places, but it can be more than that in other places. A cyclist isn't likely to kill you as a pedestrian (unless you are perhaps frail), but they could well injure you in a collision.

I am certainly pro-cycling, but it has to be disciplined cycling. In Amsterdam, where it seems there are more bikes than cars in the centre, cyclists tend to stick where they should be and obey lights e.t.c, because if they don't, well, they may well crash into another cyclist (there are so many of them) or a tram. Here, I certainly see more bikes jumping the traffic lights than cars or swerving on pavements to avoid them, which endangers pedestrians and cyclists themselves more than other vehicles.

[GearJammer]

lol, im loving this.

Nothing like bringing up a topic about roads to start WW3, lol

[GB]

The fact of the matter is, there are good and bad amongst all modes that use the roads.

However, the lack of personal responsibility some cyclists show added to the leaner punishments they seem to get doesn't help the car v cyclists animosity.

[Yew]

Originally Posted by DavidBrown

The standard of driving has decreased so much

Thats interesting that the test is so much harder comepared to years ago, maybe all those drivers with an old driving test should have to resit their examinations to ensure their driving is up to par?

[SS4]

Originally Posted by GearJammer

lol, im loving this.

Nothing like bringing up a topic about roads to start WW3, lol

IMO it's important to remember exactly why so many local authorities (and companies) are supposedly mad on H&S. The reason of course being the ambulance chasers.

[jonmorris0844]

Originally Posted by Bungle73

Did I say anyone here said it? No I don't think I did. Like I said it's the vibe I'm getting.

Shall we have people say you're a rapist or paedophile? I know you never said it, but we could just say it was a vibe we were getting...

That would be outrageous and I'd expect such a comment to be reported to a moderator immediately, so I'm not best pleased that you can talk of a vibe that says everyone (thus including me) is attacking ALL cyclists. That would mean slagging off myself.

Originally Posted by Bungle73

..I try to obey all the rules of the road when I cycle.

Try? Do you have the option to be selective on what laws to obey?

[starrymarkb]

Originally Posted by SS4

IMO it's important to remember exactly why so many local authorities (and companies) are supposedly mad on H&S. The reason of course being the ambulance chasers.

How about riderless electric bikes