Bombardier vs Siemens

[Chris125]

As to unfit for purpose comments - 3 plus 2 seating designed for commuting on long distance SWT work? Seating in 185s and lack of luggage space? i woant however blame them for the units being to short, thats DFTs problem.

Did you read what i said about comparing elements of the design that were in the specification? Siemens do not decide whether a train has 2+2 or 3+2 seating, or how much luggage space is needed.

Chris

 

[Eagle]

Apparently high powered DMUs such as Voyagers and 185s emit the most co2. On the other hand an older HST is very green by comparison.

That's per passenger kilometre though; so if Voyagers were longer (as they should have been) their emissions figures would appear to be lower. And the HST is basically a loco-hauled train (this is one thing that loco-haulage definitely has going for it—its emissions are way lower).

From the Network Rail Electrification RUS figure 4.3, a 221 produces 110 g/pkm, which is the only one they show that's worse than a single-decker bus (and almost as bad as a car). A 170, however, only produces 75 g/pkm, same as a double-deck bus. A HST is the best of the diesel trains at 62 g/pkm, almost as good as a 458 at 52 g/pkm. A 91-hauled service wins out of all possible trains though at just 40 g/pkm. But the lowest one on the graph is a long-distance Megabus coach at 30 g/pkm :P
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...although I agree theres problems at the beginning you only need to look at the reliabilitty of the 22x classes and the majoritty of 170s to see how well they can work although I do agree rattles can be a feature.

444s are very reliable (considered by many to be the most reliable train on the network). 450s are reliable too. Both Siemens Desiros.

 

[jopsuk]

Surely formations do come into it? After all, at capacity a relatively low capacity GC HST is likley to be worse per passenger km than, say, a FGW 8-car HD set? Similarly, whilst I appreciate every car has engines, surely a 7-car 222 is more efficient (if at capacity) than a 4-car 222 (at capacity)?

I do appreciate that with the same number of passengers on board (rather than same relative load) the shorter trains will be more efficient.

 

[Eagle]

Surely formations do come into it? After all, at capacity a relatively low capacity GC HST is likley to be worse per passenger km than, say, a FGW 8-car HD set? Similarly, whilst I appreciate every car has engines, surely a 7-car 222 is more efficient (if at capacity) than a 4-car 222 (at capacity)?

I do appreciate that with the same number of passengers on board (rather than same relative load) the shorter trains will be more efficient.

These are just figures pulled from a Network Rail document (I agree, there's not much context to them, they look like all-encompassing averages).

And of course the more rammed a service, the lower its emissions per pkm

 

[RobShipway]

These are just figures pulled from a Network Rail document (I agree, there's not much context to them, they look like all-encompassing averages).

And of course the more rammed a service, the lower its emissions per pkm

So basically what i sbeing said is that if you added two more carriages to the 5 coach Voyager 221, with one without any engine and the other with an overhead transformer then it would be no different than an HST when it comes to the CO2 output?

I also agree with most of the posts here about it being down to the design requirments given to either Bombardier or Siemens as to who is better. I certainly think that either the Siemens Class 450 or the Bombardier Class 377 trains ride better than the Alstom Class 458's that are currently on the London Waterloo - Reading route.

 

[David]

The 185 runs less smoothly than the 156 and 158.

Mis-understanding between us here. When I say a 185 will comfortably cruise along no matter what the line is like, I meant it can keep to the line speed without needing to be thrashed to high heaven, unlike the 170.

An example of this is the line between Scunthorpe and Doncaster. Even during the loooooong 55mph limit up until Thorne Jn, a 170 is on and off the power to keep to the line speed, and after that where it increase to 60 mph, then quickly to 85mph at Hatfield colliery, it's just 1 application on the power handle. IE. Full power. A 185 however, will be a quick burst to 60mph, cruise a little while and a slightly long burst to the 85 mph limit where it then just cruises until the line speed drops at Bentley Jn.

 

[TheJRB]

I like both Siemens and Bombardier, although I've spent more time on Bombardier's products. I like the Electrostars (although the 375/9 seating leaves something to be desired) and the only complaint I have about the 171 Turbostars on my local line are their short length and that's not Bombardier's fault anyway!

That said, I'd probably have to choose a third way and say that I'm most impressed with Hitachi and their offering in the south east, the 395s. They're comfortable (apart from the really shaky part in one of the HS1 tunnels) and pleasant inside although Bombardier does the best job in my opinion with interior lighting.

 

[notadriver]

Mis-understanding between us here. When I say a 185 will comfortably cruise along no matter what the line is like, I meant it can keep to the line speed without needing to be thrashed to high heaven, unlike the 170.

An example of this is the line between Scunthorpe and Doncaster. Even during the loooooong 55mph limit up until Thorne Jn, a 170 is on and off the power to keep to the line speed, and after that where it increase to 60 mph, then quickly to 85mph at Hatfield colliery, it's just 1 application on the power handle. IE. Full power. A 185 however, will be a quick burst to 60mph, cruise a little while and a slightly long burst to the 85 mph limit where it then just cruises until the line speed drops at Bentley Jn.

Are you a driver?

 

[David]

Unfortunately not, and I'm not an employee within the railway industry at all. All my comments about 170s v 185s it just from my many experiences using them between Scunthorpe and Doncaster.

 

[Nym]

Although I was on a 170 with one engine to Paragon once, and we where only 7 late into Leeds and 4 late into Hull, that wasn't bad going...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

According to Dan Milmo in the Guardian today, the Crossrail rolling stock procurement will start tomorrow (28 Feb).
I assume this means the ITT and train spec will be published.
The bidders include Hitachi and CAF as well as Bombardier and Siemens.
The procurement will be run by TfL not DfT.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/feb/26/crossrail-siemens-contract-warning?INTCMP=SRCH

 

[Eagle]

What happened to Alstom? I thought they were shortlisted too.

 

[YorkshireBear]

What happened to Alstom? I thought they were shortlisted too.

I think they withdrew if i remember rightly.

 

[Nym]

Is what I am thinking too, they pulled out of Thameslink with the same offer as they had for Crossrail IIRC...

 

[phil281]

Living in South West London, I can't believe people like Siemens more then bombardier. 444's are nice but the 450's are dreadful horrible trains. 450's have a terrible ride, they take forever to get the doors open, the seats are awful, the bogies squeak all the time, the air con is rubbish, your phone never works on them, seats don't line up with the windows and on longer distance journeys, there are no tables. They just seem to be a hash between long distance and commuter train, I can't stand them.

377's are much nicer, comfy seats, good ride, smooth and quiet, doors open quickly, the seats line up with the windows which are big and the air con works properly. No idea why people don't like them.

185's are the same as 450's are they a commuter train or long distance? You just get this mish mash that doesn't work.

 

[SwindonPkwy]

This is kind of where I was going with the original thread. If the Siemens Desiro is the better product "out of the box" (not discounting Hitachi or CAF) is it because they don't have to make many changes from their base model to meet the spec? Are Bombardier having to adapt their product which, in turn, leads to unreliability? If this is the case, then you would expect Siemens to be favourites for the Crossrail contract. This would put the politicians under pressure in not buying "British" (please note the inverted commas) again. Maybe Hitachi will take it and the politicians can count the UK IEP jobs twice!

 

[WatcherZero]

Alstom did indeed withdraw, they decided they didnt have a suitable commuter model and the cost of developing one would put them at a financial disadvantage against the other bids.

 

[Eagle]

Heh, I guess Junipers would be a bit odd...

 

[ert47]

Living in South West London, I can't believe people like Siemens more then bombardier. 444's are nice but the 450's are dreadful horrible trains. 450's have a terrible ride, they take forever to get the doors open, the seats are awful, the bogies squeak all the time, the air con is rubbish, your phone never works on them, seats don't line up with the windows and on longer distance journeys, there are no tables. They just seem to be a hash between long distance and commuter train, I can't stand them.

377's are much nicer, comfy seats, good ride, smooth and quiet, doors open quickly, the seats line up with the windows which are big and the air con works properly. No idea why people don't like them.

185's are the same as 450's are they a commuter train or long distance? You just get this mish mash that doesn't work.

Heres the thing, I live in South East London, although I like the 377s, I generally prefer the 450s. But this is mainly down to the fact that I rarely get the chance to use them and Southwest Trains appear to keep their trains cleaner than Southern/Southeastern (also, I find there are more attractive people on the short journeys I do make between Clapham Junction and Waterloo )

Complaints about the units themselves, try getting on a 375 and ignoring the constant buzzing noise - the 377 may suffer from it as well, but its louder and more annoying on teh 375's.

 

[HSTEd]

What we really need is a 125mph Sprinter derivative.
Now that would be handy for regional express trains.

 

[phil281]

What we really need is a 125mph Sprinter derivative.
Now that would be handy for regional express trains.

Like a class 180? Someone wrote earlier that Alstom make the nicest trains, i'd agree with that.

 

[David]

Someone wrote earlier that Alstom make the nicest trains, i'd agree with that.

If they work or don't go up in smoke!

 

[HSTEd]

Like a class 180? Someone wrote earlier that Alstom make the nicest trains, i'd agree with that.

Unfortunately Cl180s do not qualify for Sprinter differentials. Which are neccesary to maintain timings on many long distance Sprinter operated routes.

Also who fitted out a Cl180 to have laptop plugs obscured by the table supports?
And why has noone secured the tables to the sides of the carriage.

 

[RobShipway]

This is kind of where I was going with the original thread. If the Siemens Desiro is the better product "out of the box" (not discounting Hitachi or CAF) is it because they don't have to make many changes from their base model to meet the spec? Are Bombardier having to adapt their product which, in turn, leads to unreliability? If this is the case, then you would expect Siemens to be favourites for the Crossrail contract. This would put the politicians under pressure in not buying "British" (please note the inverted commas) again. Maybe Hitachi will take it and the politicians can count the UK IEP jobs twice!

The reason I think that Siemens work out of the box i sthat they do a faire bit of testing of the trains at their test track in Germany which has been setup with both third rail and overhead wiring as if it was here in the UK.

Other than using the Old Dalby test track Bombardier do not have much in the way of testing facilities other than using Network Rail tracks at night time for any testing.

I personally would prefer the Crossrail trains to be developed by Bombardier or do as a Siemens/Bombardier cooperation as I think that Siemens will have enough on it's hands in delivering the Thameslink trains.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite- Bombardier had to send the first couple of 379s to the Czech Republic to put them on a decent test circuit. Old Dalby is severely limited by not being a circuit.

 

[Schnellzug]

Living in South West London, I can't believe people like Siemens more then bombardier. 444's are nice but the 450's are dreadful horrible trains. 450's have a terrible ride, they take forever to get the doors open, the seats are awful, the bogies squeak all the time, the air con is rubbish, your phone never works on them, seats don't line up with the windows and on longer distance journeys, there are no tables. They just seem to be a hash between long distance and commuter train, I can't stand them.

377's are much nicer, comfy seats, good ride, smooth and quiet, doors open quickly, the seats line up with the windows which are big and the air con works properly. No idea why people don't like them.

185's are the same as 450's are they a commuter train or long distance? You just get this mish mash that doesn't work.

Well, it's all subjective, isn't it. Details like the design of seats and seating arrangements are surely specified by the customer, and I've always thought the air con seems effective enough, if a bit noisy. I do agree though that the riding has never been brilliant; over the bogey, on jointed track particularly, they do tend to sway about from side to side rather disconcertingly.
But then, i've never thought that Voyagers are particularly brilliant in that regard either. In fact i don't thnk that any modern stock is an improvement on BR in that respect.

 

[pemma]

Unfortunately Cl180s do not qualify for Sprinter differentials. Which are neccesary to maintain timings on many long distance Sprinter operated routes.

So you want a 125mph DMU that isn't heavier than a 158 and has the same or better acceleration? Is that possible?

 

[Schnellzug]

All modern trains seem to be extraordinarily heavy, which seems ironic to me in view of fuel costs and Carbon emissions. Is it because of EU Legislation or something, or is it just that designers don't seem to think that impact on track and energy consumption is anything really to be too worried about?

 

[Minstral25]

As someone who lives on the South Central I really like the 377's although I avoid the middle carriages like the plague. My few journeys on SWT on 450's has been vile - always squashed in overcrowded trains so I have a low opinion of them. Mostly because 3+2 seats (or any 17" seat whether in 3+2 or 2+2) is far too narrow for me and always uncomfortable only marginally better than standing. My one journey from Clapham to Waterloo in a 444 was brilliant and shows why you need end door stock on longer distance runs.

 

[WatcherZero]

Look at Argentina's 40 year old coaches for your answer, while theyve started getting lighter again from improved materials for most of the last 30 years theyve been getting progressivley heavier from increased crash worthiness and luxuries that have become standard (charging points, WI-FI, air conditioning)