If we were starting with a blank piece of paper...

[DaveNewcastle]

The reduction in fare evasion, ticketing errors and missed opportunities to buy which are appropriate for high density commuter routes, remote and rarely used rural routes and long distance high value routes are more than an exercise in devising new schemes, regulations, education and enforcement.

Its an expense.

Do we not want to put a limit on how expensive we make rail travel? Do we not accept that there is a degree of staffing, automation and enforcement whose cost is disproportionate to the benefits?

 

[yorkie]

OK, let's get an example. A passenger is on a train without a ticket.

Then sell them a ticket!

Firstly, how does a member of staff determine correctly whether there is a genuine reason for this? If there is, how does the staff member proceed without making the passenger feel they are part of the criminal system (It is too obvious from many threads here that the default mode even in these circumstances is to talk of penalties and fines)

The default on any train from York would be to simply sell a ticket. In a Penalty Fare area, where purchasing before boarding without a "genuine reason" is compulsory, it's quite different. But we have signs, procedures and policies in place for these areas, and I can't see too much wrong with them (other than I think there should be more signs where this applies).

Secondly, how should the staff member deal with the various gradations of holding no ticket in contradiction to the rules;

Not sure what you mean by that! If you mean a PF area where holding a ticket is compulsory, we have procedures for that.

e.g. should any difference be seen between the person who boarded at an unmanned station, but who has passed through a station issuing tickets before the staff member found them, and the lady who says she never buys tickets, s f-off; what levels of discretion should there be; what levels of legal action should there be.

Blimey, so it does require a detailed essay then! Of course there is a difference between those situations. If someone is asking to buy a ticket, you sell a ticket, it may be necessary to determine more info about their origin station and itinerary to determine if the ticket should be discounted or not. If someone is telling you to f-off because they won't buy a ticket, then you can't sell them a ticket, so the outcome has to be quite different (perhaps involving BTP).

 

[Badger]

What would be the most efficient and effective procedure for addressing the situation where a passenger is travelling without a ticket, taking into account the varying circumstances in which this may occur?

Free national public transport.

 

[Nonsense]

Make all trains free at point of use.

This

It is rather telling that the majority of responses here default to the make the fair dodging scum pay mentality rather than considering any imaginative alternative.

The question is how to ensure that passengers can use a service without the hassle of obtaining in advance a paper ticket. There are many products and services available without first purchasing a ticket. Could rail be one of them?

 

[Zamracene749]

Simples.

Fair fares based on miles travelled, (possibly with a morning peak supplement?). Hopefully the standard fare will not be more expensive than hiring a helicopter to get get to the same place!

Tickets to be purchased before boarding, if possible. This can include the whole gamut of advanced, group, race day special offers etc.

If for any reason they cannot buy before boarding, the passenger MUST ACTIVELY SEEK OUT THE GUARD to buy a ticket after boarding.

If they sit down and hope to get away with it and the guard finds them, then it's ticket plus penalty fare. Discretion allowed by guard of course.

 

[island]

Simples.

Fair fares based on miles travelled, (possibly with a morning peak supplement?)

This suggestion is thrown up from time to time on the board. I postulate that fair and miles-based are mutually exclusive. I would challenge you or anyone to come up with a system that is fair (or at least at least fairer than what we have at present).

If for any reason they cannot buy before boarding, the passenger MUST ACTIVELY SEEK OUT THE GUARD to buy a ticket after boarding.

If they sit down and hope to get away with it and the guard finds them, then it's ticket plus penalty fare. Discretion allowed by guard of course.

I would support this system. Falls down on DOO of course!

 

[pemma]

Fair fares based on miles travelled, (possibly with a morning peak supplement?). Hopefully the standard fare will not be more expensive than hiring a helicopter to get get to the same place!

OK but how you propose that'll work?

Firstly, would that mean a return is automatically double cost of a single? If so couldn't that increase fare evasion?

Let's say it was 15p per mile and 5p per mile morning peak supplement. On a 200 mile journey that would make it £30 - £40 single. What that really work for East Coast and Virgin? They currently have to offer dirt cheap Advance fares to get anything like a healthy number of passengers off-peak and presumably use the expensive Anytime tickets to subside the cost.

Now I'm not saying Virgins £200+ Anytime Returns are the right solution but I feel your suggestion could mean off-peak travel would drop substantially.

If for any reason they cannot buy before boarding, the passenger MUST ACTIVELY SEEK OUT THE GUARD to buy a ticket after boarding.

If they sit down and hope to get away with it and the guard finds them, then it's ticket plus penalty fare. Discretion allowed by guard of course.

Unstaffed stations can have 30+ boarding at busy times. Do guards really want 30 people crowding around them all at once?

Also what happens if the guard can't make him/herself available as, for instance, they are making arrangements for a wheelchair passenger to alight at the next station or if one guard doesn't make him/herself available and there's a crew change and the next one does?

 

[Badger]

Or indeed if the person is in a wheelchair and can't "seek out the guard" (or has heavy shopping, a large case, etc, which would be unfeasible to drag through the train searching for them).

I think the very sentence is awfully presumptious.

"If they sit down and hope to get away with it"

There's an important "and" there.

Personally I believe that if a guard has the ability to sell a ticket it should be sold, and a penalty only given to those who refuse to buy when offered.

 

[WestCoast]

Unstaffed stations can have 30+ boarding at busy times. Do guards really want 30 people crowding around them all at once?

Also what happens if the guard can't make him/herself available as, for instance, they are making arrangements for a wheelchair passenger to alight at the next station or if one guard doesn't make him/herself available and there's a crew change and the next one does?

I think the suggestion would only be appropriate at staffed stations, but a variation of this system has worked perfectly fine as the travelling conditions on SNCB/NMBS in Belgium. Passengers are asked to buy before boarding, but later runners e.t.c. are accommodated as a concession. It's made clear that the onus is on the passenger to buy a ticket, not for rail staff to find them.

If you were able to purchase before boarding, then you should seek the guard on the platform before boarding and they will sell a ticket later on subject to a small supplement. If the passenger just gets on without informing the guard, then the passenger will have to pay a larger supplement.

It seems like a reasonable policy to me. Any passenger holding a disabled pass is exempt.

 

[yorkie]

Simples.

On the contrary; anything but!

Fair fares based on miles travelled

Let's see if this is workable shall we?

1) Please give me the proposed fares from York to Whitby for a day return, avoiding Darlington, and tell me how this fare is calculated and whether you think it will be competetive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time?

2) Please give me the proposed fares from York to London for a day return, and if this is lower than current prices, tell me where the revenue will be brought in to compensate EC for the revenue loss?

3) Please give me the proposed fares from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Leicester to Nottingham, and let me know how you are calculating the mileage and whether under your system it will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

If you can't give me actual fares and details of how they are calculated then I'll assume the system doesn't work.

You can get mileages from the NRT, or the "carbon emissions" options on WebTIS-powered sites, or from Railmiles.

In the highly unlikely event that these questions can be answered in a way that would be satisfactory to the DfT, ATOC, the TOCs, and passengers, then I will be quite shocked.

(possibly with a morning peak supplement?)

Who would collect the supplement? How would it be calculated? Grand Central tried a supplement for peak travel, it did not last long and was a complete and utter disaster. After a few days I'm told only one guard was collecting the supplement. It was then quietly dropped and replaced with the current fare structure.

Tickets to be purchased before boarding, if possible. This can include the whole gamut of advanced, group, race day special offers etc.

If for any reason they cannot buy before boarding, the passenger MUST ACTIVELY SEEK OUT THE GUARD to buy a ticket after boarding.

If they sit down and hope to get away with it and the guard finds them, then it's ticket plus penalty fare. Discretion allowed by guard of course.

Can you clarify, are you intending this to be the rule in PF areas? In other words relax the current rules by allowing people to approach the guard?

Or are you planning to effectively extend the PF area to the whole country and cause absolute chaos on lines such as the Severn Beach line causing severe dangerous overcrowding in the rear of the train near the guards door while the front coach is empty?

It is unclear from your post, if the former idea then that sounds good to me, if the latter idea is what you had in mind then it has more holes than Swiss cheese.

 

[Zamracene749]

Sorry if i've annoyed you Yorkie.

I'm simply suggesting a system that is well established and seems to work ok in many european countries, without all of the complications we have here.

I'm sure that in general only enthusiasts like us would travel by rail York to Whitby in preference to the much more frequent and direct bus, it's hardly a like for like comparison by mileage or travel standard.

As for the tickets you suggest Peterborough to Nottingham if they need to go via Leicester the mileage should reflect that, portable ticket machines could easily be programmed with via mileages (again, they do this abroad) and any shorter(cheaper) route should always be available if a higher than direct fare has been paid?

The penalty clause would apply in a similar manner to now, ie it applies if you board at a staffed station with ticket facilities. Lines such as Severn Beach or Esk Valley would remain paytrain services, as now.

Guards discretion should surely apply re disabled passengers.

I'm not party to the operating costs of a York to London (or indeed any other) train, so can hardly suggest commercially viable fares.

Are the costs per mile per seat significantly different for different routes?

 

[richw]

All my wishes would be consistency across the network as sanctions vary from area to area. I'd like to see one punishment across all networks. Admittedly I'd like it to be a tough penalty though.

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[yorkie]

Sorry if i've annoyed you Yorkie.

No problem, but the fact that my concerns are not addressed, to me just re-enforces that my concerns are valid ones

I'm simply suggesting a system that is well established and seems to work ok in many european countries, without all of the complications we have here.

Hmm, sounds so simple, but then let's have the figures to prove it. I also don't think that tickets are as flexible abroad as they are here!

I'm sure that in general only enthusiasts like us would travel by rail York to Whitby in preference to the much more frequent and direct bus, it's hardly a like for like comparison by mileage or travel standard.

But no answer to the question The current market-based rate competes well with the bus. If mileage-based pricing was used, the line would be in danger of closing and rail would lose all share of the York-Whitby market; the Coastliner would have 100% of the market for that flow.

As for the tickets you suggest Peterborough to Nottingham if they need to go via Leicester the mileage should reflect that, portable ticket machines could easily be programmed with via mileages (again, they do this abroad) and any shorter(cheaper) route should always be available if a higher than direct fare has been paid?

Again, no figures provided. And it's a shame that a permitted route would suddenly increase massively in price, also a shame that passengers would be penalised by the line zig-zagging between Peterborough & Leicester. I prefer the current system!

The penalty clause would apply in a similar manner to now, ie it applies if you board at a staffed station with ticket facilities. Lines such as Severn Beach or Esk Valley would remain paytrain services, as now.

That's not what you originally posted, and this does not adequately clarify or address my concerns.

Guards discretion should surely apply re disabled passengers.

There is a limit to how much we should rely on 'discretion'.

I'm not party to the operating costs of a York to London (or indeed any other) train, so can hardly suggest commercially viable fares.

Interesting; I thought your system was based on miles travelled rather than the operating costs of the service?

Are the costs per mile per seat significantly different for different routes?

They will be, if you calculated them on that basis, yes.

All my wishes would be consistency across the network as sanctions vary from area to area. I'd like to see one punishment across all networks. Admittedly I'd like it to be a tough penalty though.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, so I'd like to ask for some clarification.

What do you mean by 'punishment'? Again, I have to ask, are you asking for an extension of the Penalty Fare scheme nationwide? Do you consider a Penalty Fare to be a 'punishment'? Or are you suggesting Penalty Fares are abolished and we have loads of PACE-trained officers on each train issuing court summons to anyone who isn't entirely valid?

 

[12CSVT]

If for any reason they cannot buy before boarding, the passenger MUST ACTIVELY SEEK OUT THE GUARD to buy a ticket after boarding.

And supposing that passenger is elderly / disabled / has luggage (can't leave any items unattended, can we ?) / has 2 or 3 young children in tow, or the train is completely wedged ?

 

[richw]

Yorkie, by punishment I mean penalty fares, or a fixed penalty. I just feel it should be the same no matter which part of the network you get caught without a ticket on.

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