• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

End of Open Access Entrepreneurs

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
i needn't worry, like all these Government Consultation Papers and Command Papers and all the rest of it, it's all a combination of flannel and hot air. That's why i always find very amnusing these incredibly long discussions there always are about What the Government will or Ought to do, and What this will mean, and Will this mean that Pacers will have to go by 2020, and so on. It's all just speculation, and there is a very good chance, if not an absolute certainity, that it will not be the same Government by 2018-19.
 
Joined
21 Oct 2010
Messages
1,040
Location
Leeds
So actually, the point of privatisation increasing proper competition on the rails takes another hit. Backward move. What a shame.....

http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=1324

I would agree with you if any open access operations actually wanted to operate anywhere other than the ECML or WCML but they dont. Those lines are full to capacity and more trains full of fresh air just as an ORCATS raid benifits nobody.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,677
If open access do prove to impede investment by the TOC then i think they should go.
Take for example EC, they will take the routes off FHT and GC as a franchise minimum for course of franchise. They can intergrate it with rest of franchise therefore not impeding investment. I personally think FHT should maybe be in EC anyway post electrification of hull (i know its not confirmed but it might happen) and have the same long distance electric stock as the rest of the ECML operating 7-10 returns a day.
 

91101

Member
Joined
25 Oct 2007
Messages
439
Whilst the government may want to impede Open Access, I am fairly certain that European legislation would forbid them from preventing access. This is why now almost all European rail operators are separated into Operations and Infrastructure.
 

Wath Yard

Member
Joined
31 Dec 2011
Messages
864
I agree, the Government has little say in the matter. European law and the way the railway has been structured are more significant. The Government can huff and puff, and formally object, to OAOs but it is the ORR's decision whether they meet the set criteria and what paths they get. Obviously the Government can put pressure on the ORR but it is independent and will decide itself.
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
I would agree with you if any open access operations actually wanted to operate anywhere other than the ECML or WCML but they dont. Those lines are full to capacity and more trains full of fresh air just as an ORCATS raid benifits nobody.

But at the same time could GC make a profit in not serving London or stations on the ECML? Highly doubtful.
 

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
I would agree with you if any open access operations actually wanted to operate anywhere other than the ECML or WCML but they dont. Those lines are full to capacity and more trains full of fresh air just as an ORCATS raid benifits nobody.

Erm, Devon and Cornwall Railway from Okehampton ?
 

AlanFry1

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2011
Messages
662
Whilst the government may want to impede Open Access, I am fairly certain that European legislation would forbid them from preventing access. This is why now almost all European rail operators are separated into Operations and Infrastructure.

They cannot force them off the rails, but they can take them over

 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,551
Location
Mold, Clwyd
The arbitrator is not the government (DfT) but the regulator (ORR).
We will soon see what ORR makes of the West Coast OA applications (GNWR), in parallel with the new franchisee.
If they refuse them it's pretty well the end for new OA operations to a London terminal.
If they let them have an hourly path out of Euston we are in for an interesting ride.

However, it's clear OA is only about raiding the premium routes.
Not much interest away from London.
 

Morgsie

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
370
Location
Stoke-On-Trent
Speaking about OAO's, GO OP has not been mentioned. This OAO aims to run services between Birmingham and Westbury via Melksham and Oxford.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,628
Open Access Operators are supposed to operate routes that for whatever reason are not in the franchises.

If Hull trains are included in the next East Coast franchise to begin once the Hull Trains current set of paths expire I'm pretty sure they would win the ensuing court case. Hull Trains have no right to expect that the paths they have secured for however long will continue past the end of the current agreement and the franchised operator should (and as I understand it does) get first call on the paths.
 

AlanFry1

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2011
Messages
662
Could the government buy Open Access operators and fold them into the francise?
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,180
Location
Fenny Stratford
The report desont bring an end to Open Access Operators it just sauys the government isnt minded to encourage expansion

As an aside - how is someone who is banned posting on this forum?
 

DownSouth

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2011
Messages
1,545
However, it's clear OA is only about raiding the premium routes.
Not much interest away from London.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if Open Access operators were somehow excluded from collecting revenue via ORCATS and had to rely on collecting the revenue only due to the actual number of passengers carried.
 

Masboroughlad

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2011
Messages
1,560
Location
Midlands
It would be interesting to see what would happen if Open Access operators were somehow excluded from collecting revenue via ORCATS and had to rely on collecting the revenue only due to the actual number of passengers carried.

What a great idea! Far too sensible for the railway to adopt!!! :lol:
 

Badger

Member
Joined
17 Oct 2011
Messages
617
Location
Wolverhampton
In my mind what OA operators are better suited for, rather than long distance routes that get in the way of other companies, is disused branch lines (that are still open for whatever reason). For example (and sorry it's a local example as I can't think of any others right now), the Wolverhampton to Walsall line which was withdrawn by London Midland but is still open as a diversion route. I'm sure there are better examples.
 

Masboroughlad

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2011
Messages
1,560
Location
Midlands
In my mind what OA operators are better suited for, rather than long distance routes that get in the way of other companies, is disused branch lines (that are still open for whatever reason). For example (and sorry it's a local example as I can't think of any others right now), the Wolverhampton to Walsall line which was withdrawn by London Midland but is still open as a diversion route. I'm sure there are better examples.

I think there is something like this at planning stage in the North East somewhere. Probably be knocked on the head now though :roll:
 

Wath Yard

Member
Joined
31 Dec 2011
Messages
864
The open access proposal in the North East won't be knocked on the head now due to the Government restating its opposition to OAOs. It won't happen because it is pure fantasy. OAOs are not suited to branch lines. The fares are usually very cheap and there are nowhere near enough passengers to cover their costs. What has to be remembered is that OAOs don't receive a subsidy and they are not public spirited philanthropists who want to lose money.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,259
Speaking about OAO's, GO OP has not been mentioned. This OAO aims to run services between Birmingham and Westbury via Melksham and Oxford.

I predict it will never start.

ORR will determine that it fails the 'not primarily abstractive test' on the Oxford to Birmingham section of the proposed route.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,180
Location
Fenny Stratford
The open access proposal in the North East won't be knocked on the head now due to the Government restating its opposition to OAOs. It won't happen because it is pure fantasy. OAOs are not suited to branch lines. The fares are usually very cheap and there are nowhere near enough passengers to cover their costs. What has to be remembered is that OAOs don't receive a subsidy and they are not public spirited philanthropists who want to lose money.

This scheme just seems like total wibble! The website is terrible and has very little information and some spelling mistakes on it. http://www.teestrainscic.com/
 

E16 Cyclist

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2011
Messages
185
Location
London
It would be interesting to see what would happen if Open Access operators were somehow excluded from collecting revenue via ORCATS and had to rely on collecting the revenue only due to the actual number of passengers carried.

Thats essentially how Heathrow Express operate in that it only receives revenue from its own tickets. But that then forces the ticket price up, while this works for Hex because it's aimed at business travellers that formula is not the same for the other open access operators and would see passengers desert them very quickly
 

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,504
Location
Southampton
Badger said:
In my mind what OA operators are better suited for, rather than long distance routes that get in the way of other companies, is disused branch lines (that are still open for whatever reason). For example (and sorry it's a local example as I can't think of any others right now), the Wolverhampton to Walsall line which was withdrawn by London Midland but is still open as a diversion route. I'm sure there are better examples.

Surely open-access can only work where there is profit to be had? There's probably a reason why little-used branch lines are little-used!

I've always found the idea of competition for passengers on the railway to be silly, especially now more and more routes are starting to reach line capacity. As we have seen, it is operationally much simpler if every service on a route is provided by one company. In most London terminals, we have only one or two operators running everything, with suburban and long-distance being run seperately. Competition does exist in some places (London-Birmingham via the WCML or Chiltern, for example), but most other places have a complete monopoly.

This is in contrast to freight, which has done very well from privatisation and competition. I suppose it comes down to the fact that rail travel for passengers has social benefits as well as economic ones, whereas freight will always largely be driven by money. As far as I know, there are no subsidies for freight, and loss-making flows just don't exist anymore.

In the meantime, I wouldn't be suprised if open-access operations like Grand Central and Hull Trains are merged into the East Coast franchise. They are evidently a commerically viable operation, so the government will want to grab a slice or two! :lol:
 

martinsh

Established Member
Joined
27 Jan 2011
Messages
1,743
Location
Considering a move to Memphis
I predict it will never start.

ORR will determine that it fails the 'not primarily abstractive test' on the Oxford to Birmingham section of the proposed route.

It may well never start (I hope it does), but they have been going for 3 years now. Surely ORR will have told them whether or not their proposal fails the 'not primarily abstractive test' ? Or are they an even bigger load of w*nkers than I thought ?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,259
It may well never start (I hope it does), but they have been going for 3 years now. Surely ORR will have told them whether or not their proposal fails the 'not primarily abstractive test' ? Or are they an even bigger load of w*nkers than I thought ?

They may not even have applied formally yet. At least the various Alliance proposals get as far as ORR's website...
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,042
Location
Yorkshire
I would agree with you if any open access operations actually wanted to operate anywhere other than the ECML or WCML but they dont. Those lines are full to capacity and more trains full of fresh air just as an ORCATS raid benifits nobody.

However, it's clear OA is only about raiding the premium routes.
Not much interest away from London.

Not fair. I suggest there is little demand for a Sunderland-Peterborough or Sunderland-York service. The whole point is to serve London as people want to go there. If GC had their paths cut, they would just divide/join units at Doncaster. Ditto HT.

When NXEC won intercity east coast there was nothing to stop it from bidding to serve sunderland, Hull or halifax.
 

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,057
Location
London E14
It would be interesting to see what would happen if Open Access operators were somehow excluded from collecting revenue via ORCATS and had to rely on collecting the revenue only due to the actual number of passengers carried.

What a great idea! Far too sensible for the railway to adopt!!! :lol:

The only way to operate that is fair to all parties is to have a level playing field - i.e. they all get a slice of all the revenue (ORCATS) or they all only get revenue for the actual number of passengers carried.

The latter would be the fairest way, and there would be an incentive to actually offer what passengers want. I'm sure though that some (franchised) operators would scream blue murder about this as it would end the guaranteed revenue and actually require them to employ sufficient on-train staff to check every ticket.

The point of privatisation is that private companies take the risks and earn the rewards if they get it right but have to take the hit if they get it wrong. However the current attitude of many (and it's not exactly discouraged by the DfT) seems to be that they don't want any risk but still want the rewards - otherwise known as having ones cake and eating it.

There is an alternative method of operating a privatised railway, which is that employed by TfL for the London Overground franchise. All LOROL have to do is provide the level of service specified in their contract and they get guaranteed revenue, whatever the farebox receipts. However, because it's TfL taking the risks it's TfL, not LOROL, who get to keep any additional profit.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top