Discretion when railcard is forgotten

[Asian Demon]

I like the first 2 paragraphs of this post. A simple policy that is consistent and accountable (i.e. its only applying the guidance as issued to TOCs' staff) leads to the minimum risk of consequential difficulties.

But I'm a little surprised to learn that SRC holders tend to argue more than YPRC holders (or should I say holders plus possible non-holders in both cases?). The reports I receive, including requests for help on here, are more often from YPRC (non-)holders.
I will agree, though, that Guards that I encounter are more likely to say that they don't want to see a SRC than to ask for a YPRC. Whilst it maybe demonstrates some welcome comradarie between a Guard who may be approaching or have passed 60 themselves, and a passenger clearly their elder, (and I really do welcome such supportive relations between staff and passenger), it does completely overlook the fundamental question of whether the passenger, who is eligible by age for one card or the other, has actually bothered to buy / renew and carry their card.

I don't mind a Guard who recognises a regular passenger saying "Its OK, I trust you", though even that approach is opening the possibility for abuses, but one day, that trusted and familiar passenger's RC will expire. Will it be renewed promptly if it is never required for inspection? Perhaps not. We shouldn't assume anything!

My last point relates to the frequent conflation of eligibility for a SRC with being a pensioner, being more forgetfull than average, being more cantankerous than most, and being more likely to play some age-related upmanship game when challenged. As some of the best educated minds, best informed minds, most respected minds, most trusted minds and most analytic minds are those of over 60's, then I struggle to understand that conflation. I will agree that there are some regular aged abusers of the system, travelling without tickets as well as RCs, but I suspect that the correspondence is specious - older people may be forgetful, some might not be, and some younger people might be forgetful. We all may be guilty of travelling with a Discounted ticket and no Railcard.

I guess the last paragraph is more my personal experience based on checking tickets on a day to day basis. It's a reflection on what i've experienced so far. It's not to say that this is a fact for all seniors with rail cards. I've had positive reactions as well as negative reactions from all people when it comes to being asked for a rail card, regardless of age or eligibility.

 

[jon0844]

A 'Goodwin' 14 posts in - is this a record?

It's Godwin's Law, so now you can add pedantry to the thread too.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I guess the last paragraph is more my personal experience based on checking tickets on a day to day basis. It's a reflection on what i've experienced so far. It's not to say that this is a fact for all seniors with rail cards. I've had positive reactions as well as negative reactions from all people when it comes to being asked for a rail card, regardless of age or eligibility.

It is also my experience. In general when asking to see SNR cards, many older people can be grumpy, rude and argumentative about it. "Can't you see I'm entitled to it?" / " I had to have it to get the ticket" / "Nobody else ever asks to see it" / "You're the first person whose ever asked you're just being awkward" etc etc, then it is often presented with a huff and a puff and snatched back again like it was a major chore and I was somehow being rude. Not that this happens everytime, but it is surprisingly common.

In general though you do get less SNR tickets where the passenger does not have a SNR card - although it is not unknown. I have had a quite a few over the years, and they are always a problem.

I must also add that I note that Y-P card holders are generally getting better at presenting their cards without asking, assuming they have one. The number of Y-P tickets I am seeing where the passenger has "left it at home" or "picked up the wrong wallet/bag/coat" is increasing rapidly. I have lost count of the number in the last week alone, far more recently than I have ever recalled before.

Oh yes, and I also agree with the policy of treat them all the same. New ticket again, no exceptions (unless it is only a few days (no more than 7) out of date in which case I will do an XS).

 

[34D]

I agree that SNR railcards are more likely to be let off.

I also suggest that 20 year old girls with low-cut tops are more likely to be let of than young lads.

Both the above are based on my observations as a passenger.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, flirty girls can get away with loads.

You'd think staff would cotton on, but I guess they like the attention!

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk

 

[CosherB]

Why not? Because there is no mechanism in place that allows anybody to do so. (Despite us being run by private companies)

Tosh. That's the 'we've always done it this way so always will' attitude that so annoys me on here. Processes can and are changed in the light of experience in any private company (despite your dig).

I prefer calk7's reason - that's a real reason!

 

[Flamingo]

Tosh. That's the 'we've always done it this way so always will' attitude that so annoys me on here. Processes can and are changed in the light of experience in any private company (despite your dig).

I prefer calk7's reason - that's a real reason!

No, that is the fact. If you want to write to ATOC proposing that such a system be put in place, go ahead, but at present there is no such system there, you snapping your fingers and saying "make it so" will not cause it to instantly leap into being.

And after all, they are private companies and have been for nearly twenty years now. You'd think they would have cottoned on to it by themselves.

 

[swt_passenger]

True. If I didn't have an SRC and paid the uplift, then my mate who does have one reclaims the uplift and gives it to me...

Hmmm. See your point.

Also, if your proposed system was in place, you could still be 'in profit' without ever obtaining a railcard, unless you were checked and charged on the majority of journies. Depending on the frequency of checks by staff, sometimes you might pay 66% of your fare, and other times you might pay 100%+£5.00.

Again, depending on the size of your normal fare, that £5.00 extra to pay every now and again could be considered as a calculated risk. So a workable system that acts as a real deterrent might have to charge a percentage uplift rather than a flat uplift. And thinking about it further, for it to work as a deterrent that rate probably needs to be something like £20 or double the correct fare. We could even give it a name...

 

[Ivo]

I agree that SNR railcards are more likely to be let off.

I also suggest that 20 year old girls with low-cut tops are more likely to be let of than young lads.

Both the above are based on my observations as a passenger.

This summarises the case at hand pretty well.

As a general rule of thumb (in my experience), the same girls are also the most likely to "play dumb", and the elderly (especially the women) are most likely to try to win the TM over and persuade him to let them stay on. But in many cases the former are just as guilty as the young men - in many cases more so, because at least the young men will have the sense to check beforehand (unless a deliberate ploy of course); similarly, the elderly women are often the most spiteful, and match the stereotypical tag of "old hag" and other such nonsense.

I have never forgotten my Railcard. Similarly, I have only ever not paid for train travel three times in my life, two of which were down to no TM appearing when there were no ticket [available] issuing facilities where I boarded. (The other was due to snow.)

I have also heard plenty of stories of people trying to use their ENCTS Pass fradulently, including as what may as well be an ALR - something I have never done and will never intend to do. (Having said that though, I have travelled on it outside of its validity probably 20 times, invariably on account of the drivers knowing I have such a Pass and issuing a ticket for it without realising it was outside of validity hours.)

Overall, both are probably as bad as each other - but the younger men are both the most likely to try as sohpisticated means of fare evasion, but also the most likely to be caught attempting fare evasion.

It is also my experience. In general when asking to see SNR cards, many older people can be grumpy, rude and argumentative about it. "Can't you see I'm entitled to it?" / " I had to have it to get the ticket" / "Nobody else ever asks to see it" / "You're the first person whose ever asked you're just being awkward" etc etc, then it is often presented with a huff and a puff and snatched back again like it was a major chore and I was somehow being rude. Not that this happens everytime, but it is surprisingly common.

I myself will say this sometimes - but only ever out of surprise (usually asking the driver if they had ever seen such a card, i.e. a student YP as opposed to a "normal" one, or if the ENCTS card that fact it is from Southend and I study in Bath), anad never using these exact words, which appear almost rue in my eyes. For the most part they are just being somewhat uptight about the duties - and allowing themselves to get held up as a result. And this is another part of the problem - balancing your duty to the fare-paying customers in ensuring that evaders are caught against the work obligations to make sure you can address every passenger's specific needs.

 

[Flamingo]

I had the young girl fluttering her eyelashes a few weeks ago (5 hours early on her ADV ticket). She was extremely stroppy and rude as I charged her up (excess to super off-peak plus £10, not the well deserved full open single), and took my name, threatening to have me fired. As I checked the seat in front of her, she took her phone back up and shouted down it "I can't believe he didn't let me away with it. Nobody has ever charged me before".

 

[pemma]

I also suggest that 20 year old girls with low-cut tops are more likely to be let of than young lads.

Until they get a 40 year old large build female guard asking for their tickets.

 

[Flamingo]

Until they get a 40 year old large build female guard asking for their tickets.

Oh I don't know about that

 

[Yew]

Maybe we should scrap railcards, and have youth/oap fares like on the continent

 

[SS4]

Maybe we should scrap railcards, and have youth/oap fares like on the continent

Increasing the number of 15 year olds
There is nothing wrong with the railcard system, it's just some passengers get all arsey because they think they're above the rules.

 

[RJ]

I agree that SNR railcards are more likely to be let off.

I also suggest that 20 year old girls with low-cut tops are more likely to be let of than young lads.

Both the above are based on my observations as a passenger.

Yes, flirty girls can get away with loads.

You'd think staff would cotton on, but I guess they like the attention!

Nah not really. With me, manipulation was a sure fire way to get a Penalty Fare. Those attempting to manipulate me through the flashing of cleavage, fake tears or threatening to get me sacked were PF'd straight away and I told them they were lucky that I wasn't going to do a report.

Had one customer who got access to the platforms via a mobility buggy and was driven to my window to get a ticket. They claimed that they had a Senior Railcard. When I asked to see it, it was out of date. When I raised this point, they became very hostile. So I smiled gently and allowed them, in their own time, to come to terms with the fact that they were not going to get a discount.

 

[WestCoast]

Maybe we should scrap railcards, and have youth/oap fares like on the continent

Increasing the number of 15 year olds
There is nothing wrong with the railcard system, it's just some passengers get all arsey because they think they're above the rules.

Personally, I wouldn't support the introduction of Youth (12 - 25 years old) and OAP fares (60 +), because I think it would create further revenue problems.

However, I think the existing regime could be made tighter. A clear rule that a railcard must be shown when purchasing tickets and during inspections. Something like should be printed where the existing message is - "this railcard must be shown to any rail staff when requested, in order to provide your entitlement to discounted tickets".

A rule that railcards must be shown at ticket offices, with a view to making railcards becoming electronic (ITSO compliant perhaps?), so that they can be swiped on TVMs to prove entitlement. Also, users could then also be requested to enter the railcard number when purchasing online. This is all very long-term, but I suspect it could decrease fraud where people have been purchasing railcard tickets and getting away with it for various reasons (e.g. over reliance on TVMs and barriers / lack of on-train inspections due to short journey durations e.t.c).

 

[317666]

Something like should be printed where the existing message is - "this railcard must be shown to any rail staff when requested, in order to provide your entitlement to discounted tickets".

The 16-25 railcard does say "To be carried on all rail journeys" underneath where the holder's name is printed, I'd presume that other railcards say this too?

 

[WestCoast]

The 16-25 railcard does say "To be carried on all rail journeys" underneath where the holder's name is printed, I'd presume that other railcards say this too?

I have a YP too and yes I think all railcards state this, but I still believe it should have a more direct message about presenting the card with the tickets. Then there can be no arguments when people can't be bothered to look in their bag for it....:roll:

 

[34D]

I had the young girl fluttering her eyelashes a few weeks ago (5 hours early on her ADV ticket). She was extremely stroppy and rude as I charged her up (excess to super off-peak plus £10, not the well deserved full open single), and took my name, threatening to have me fired. As I checked the seat in front of her, she took her phone back up and shouted down it "I can't believe he didn't let me away with it. Nobody has ever charged me before".

Until they get a 40 year old large build female guard asking for their tickets.

So flamingo. Are you a large build female guard? I think we need to know.

 

[Weary Walker]

So flamingo. Are you a large build female guard? I think we need to know.

I believe a flamingo is a large billed bird

 

[34D]

I believe a flamingo is a large billed bird

Very good WW

 

[trainophile]

Well I've had my railcard ready four times now, but the ticket inspector only seems interested in my ticket, sometimes not even checking the reservation to make sure I'm on the right train.

Make an old woman happy and ask to see her senior railcard!

 

[GadgetMan]

A major factor in deciding whether to show some discretion is where the passenger is travelling to. If their journey ends on my train and there are no ticket barriers involved then it's entirely my decision. However if the passenger will later be connecting onto another train or going through barriers then there is no chance of discretion being shown as that puts the passenger in a difficult position later and creates more problems for colleagues as regardless to what I say, the passenger WILL claim (in most cases) the previous guard said it was ok for them to travel without a railcard.

Similar applies if they are travelling on the outward portion of a return.

 

[cjp]

Perhaps they should offer a laminated key-fob type rail card, maybe for a nominal extra charge e.g. £3, as most people wouldn't leave home without their front door key so would be very unlikely not to have their rail "card" on them.

I can't understand why men don't just keep it in their wallet, and women in their purse or handbag. A bit different for YPs as they are more likely to have a rucksack, or not carry baggage at all.

I keep mine in the same compartment of my travel bag as I keep my tickets wallet. Seems to make sense.

The three year rail cards are substantial plastic cards and could suffer a hole punched in them to go on key ring.

But I just keep mine with my various cards
and
having learned from this site
now show it with my ticket - it makes life easier for little effort on my part
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 16-25 railcard does say "To be carried on all rail journeys" underneath where the holder's name is printed, I'd presume that other railcards say this too?

My SNR one is also printed with
"To be carried on on all rail journeys"

Early morning rush hours? Tube Travel?

Not well thought out wording.

I would suggest

" Must be shown to validate all tickets purchased with this card"

A simple but perhaps effective change if any "powers" read this forum

 

[jon0844]

Or it could say 'Discounted tickets invalid without the production of this railcard' or similar (to perhaps clarify a discounted ticket with that specific railcard or whatever) - making it perfectly clear that the tickets are as good as worthless.

What's the harm in making the warning more severe? It will stop anyone moaning afterwards.

 

[GadgetMan]

Or it could say 'Discounted tickets invalid without the production of this railcard' or similar (to perhaps clarify a discounted ticket with that specific railcard or whatever) - making it perfectly clear that the tickets are as good as worthless.

What's the harm in making the warning more severe? It will stop anyone moaning afterwards.

It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. Most passengers we come across without the relevant railcard are already well aware of the requirement to have their railcard with them. So another mention will not change anything.


As an example look at Advance tickets, it clearly states "Booked trains only" on the tickets, yet a lot of passengers claim to not be aware of that bit of info.

 

[jon0844]

I realise people will still try it on, but it can't do any harm to emphasise things more.

In fact, I'd have the tickets themselves stating quite clearly (and I realise there are limits to what you can write on a ticket as it stands today) that the ticket is invalid without the presentation of your railcard. Then you wouldn't need to worry about them not having their card and claiming ignorance - you could show them the clearly marked text on the ticket they presented.

 

[barrykas]

The Conditions of Issue on the Railcard leaflets all state that you have to show your Railcard when buying and using tickets, and signing the Application Form indicates that you agree to said Conditions...Not that anyone reads such things before signing, of course!

Cheers,

Barry

 

[jon0844]

Yes, but imagine how much easier it would be for a guard/RPI to point out the rules by saying 'Can you read that on your ticket sir/madam?' - which will in turn stop all the other passengers around taking sides, often against the evil railway.

It's a case of 'every little helps'.

 

[tempests1]

When travelling back from London Waterloo on an early afternoon train last week two RPI's were undertaking a ticket inspection. The women sat two rows of seats ahead of me had a Network Railcard discounted ticket, but could not find her card. In my mind the RPI's were a credit to the company they sold the women a non discounted single ticket, & clearly advised her if she could find her railcard, she could pop into a ticket office and get a refund fair enough. But she started shouting at the RPI's & was giving a load of attitude and had gone bright red with anger. After the tirade the inspectors did point out that they could have issued a penalty fare and had showed a lot of discretion at no point were they unprofessional towards her in what they said and did. She took there names and said she was going to report them. They just shook their heads and walked off:roll: the women should know when she is well off as if she honestly had a Network Railcard she would be at no loss other than the short time to get a refund at the ticket office.