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AAA Emerson Park

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PavlosA

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Hi

I'm trying to buy an annual season ticket for a colleague. They normally purchase Gidea Park to London, but I'm being given the option of a ticket with AAA Emerson Park for the same price.

Am I right in thinking this means the ticket would give access to the Upminster c2c line into Fenchurch Street/Liverpool Street, as well as the NXEA line into Liverpool Street? Seems strange for the same price to give quite a few more options...

Thanks!
 
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bb21

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Thanks very much. Not sure why I'm being told different by trainline...

I would take much of the advice from thesheepline with a pinch of salt.

What are you doing using them anyway? You will be much better off ringing the TOC concerned, in your case, NXEA.
 

LexyBoy

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No. It means also available at Emerson Park, so at Romford you have the option of going onto Gidea Park or going to Emerson Park instead.

For clarification, does "AAA" mean simply that the ticket is valid at the "AAA" station, but that the "main" route is defined by the two stations shown as "Between:"?

Emerson Park-London is valid via either Romford or Upminster - but an Emerson Park-London AAA Gidea Park Season does not seem to be available (possibly for this reason). A Z1-6 Travelcard would be appropriate if this is needed; it's not much more expensive and possibly better value.

How does this work where the "AAA" ticket covers unconnected two stations on different routes - from memory I think Seasons from Farnborough have such an example.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would take much of the advice from thesheepline with a pinch of salt.

What are you doing using them anyway? You will be much better off ringing the TOC concerned, in your case, NXEA.

NXEA don't determine the routeing validity of that ticket - and using it via Upminster you'd be travelling with c2c who may (reasonably) claim it's not valid. ATOC could give a definitive answer, and National Rail Enquiries is their customer-facing branch.
 

bb21

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Farnborough Stations - London Terminals seasons can be AAA at Frimley, Aldershot, Camberley, Ash Vale and Farnham iirc.

NXEA don't determine the routeing validity of that ticket - and using it via Upminster you'd be travelling with c2c who may (reasonably) claim it's not valid. ATOC could give a definitive answer, and National Rail Enquiries is their customer-facing branch.

I wonder if NRE's India-based call centre would be able to tell me much. Writing to them will take longer for a response but might ultimately be more preferred.
 

LexyBoy

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I wonder if NRE's India-based call centre would be able to tell me much. Writing to them will take longer for a response but might ultimately be more preferred.

Definitely. A phone call even to the TOC concerned holds about as much weight as "this bloke on the platform told me..." in the event of you getting duff advice.
 

island

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Thanks very much. Not sure why I'm being told different by trainline...

You can solve that by never using thetrainline, as it's always more expensive than buying a ticket directly from a TOC, or from redspottedhanky.com.
 

thedbdiboy

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'Also Available At...' (AAA) Season Tickets are a carry-over from BR days, and very useful for some people. The ticket layout doesn't lend itself very well to showing the validity, but in effect it means the ticket is valid for both journeys indicated, with exactly the same route permission (and break of journey rights) as either individual journey allows. In this case, the additional availability at Emerson Park will be the same as that which would apply to a ticket issued from there to the same destination and via the same route as the ticket from Gidea Park
 

LexyBoy

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...it means the ticket is valid for both journeys indicated, with exactly the same route permission (and break of journey rights) as either individual journey allows.
Seems to contradict:
In this case, the additional availability at Emerson Park will be the same as that which would apply to a ticket issued from there to the same destination and via the same route as the ticket from Gidea Park

Either it's valid on Gildea Park-London routes and Emerson Park-London routes, or only Gildea Park-London routes plus Emerson Park to a point on that route (in which case how is this determined - it's obvious in this case but what about a Farnborough-London AAA Frimley ticket?)
 

thedbdiboy

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To clarify, an Emerson Park - London Season Ticket is valid via Romford /Ilford but excludes Upminster. so if you have a Season Ticket from Gidea park to London AAA Emerson Park, it's valid the same way.
Farnborough - London AAA Frimley will be valid as per a Farnborough - London ticket and also as per a Frimley - London.
 

MikeWh

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To clarify, an Emerson Park - London Season Ticket is valid via Romford /Ilford but excludes Upminster.

Why do you say it's not valid via Upminster?

To expand. Emerson Park has 3 routeing points: Romford, Barking and Southend. Romford and Barking pass the fare check rule. There are no direct trains to Barking so the shortest route applies. Emerson Park - Upminster - Barking is 9.25 miles while Emerson Park - Romford - Forest Gate (walk) Woodgrange Park - Barking is 11 miles. Therefore Emerson Park to London must be valid via Upminster.
 

PavlosA

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I would take much of the advice from thesheepline with a pinch of salt.

What are you doing using them anyway? You will be much better off ringing the TOC concerned, in your case, NXEA.

We have a contract with them to supply annual season tickets. I actually received much the same advice on trying to speak to NXEA. Sounded like a foreign call centre.

To expand. Emerson Park has 3 routeing points: Romford, Barking and Southend. Romford and Barking pass the fare check rule. There are no direct trains to Barking so the shortest route applies. Emerson Park - Upminster - Barking is 9.25 miles while Emerson Park - Romford - Forest Gate (walk) Woodgrange Park - Barking is 11 miles. Therefore Emerson Park to London must be valid via Upminster.

So there appears to be disagreement on the Emerson Park ticket. Are you saying an Emerson Park to London would be valid on both routes?

Edit: What happened to the original post #2?
 

bb21

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So there appears to be disagreement on the Emerson Park ticket. Are you saying an Emerson Park to London would be valid on both routes?

AAA Emerson Park is valid via Upminster. In addition to what MikeWh said above, it is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, which means that it is always valid.

Emerson Park - Romford: 2 miles
Romford - Liverpool Street: 12.5 miles
Total: 14.5 miles

Emerson Park - Upminster: 1.5 miles
Upminster - Fenchurch Street: 15.25 miles
Total: 16.75 miles

Edit: What happened to the original post #2?

It was deleted. It was incorrect.
 

PavlosA

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A further query to add to the mix.

A colleague with Gidea Park to London AAA Emerson Park annual season ticket has been stopped at the barriers at Stratford domestic and told their ticket does not allow them to leave the train at ANY intermediate station on the route, apparently because the ticket does not say 'Any Permitted'.

I've told her this can't possibly be the case, but her local ticket inspector says there is something unique about her route.

Can anyone shed any light?

Ta Pav
 

bb21

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Ask these ticket inspectors what the route is if it is not Any Permitted, and where it is documented that break of journey is barred on an AAA ticket.

Someone has been making up rules themselves.
 

PavlosA

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So there is nothing specific about that particular journey that prohibits ending a journey at an intermediate station, as mentioned in the COC.16?

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.
 

yorkie

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I've told her this can't possibly be the case, but her local ticket inspector says there is something unique about her route.
It is absolutely not the case.

No season tickets prohibit break of journey, except for some special discounted ones (e.g. for airport passengers) which, as the NRCoC says, has to be "made clear", and obviously that is not the case here.

I would consider writing to Greater Anglia Customer Relations regarding this issue. If a satisfactory response is not received then I would take it to Passenger Focus.
 

PavlosA

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Hi all

Thanks for your help so far. Received a pretty quick response from Greater Anglia Customer Relations, but have quizzed further about the AAA validity on c2c. Receive the following:

On validity at Stratford:

I can confirm that the statement you sent me by email is in fact correct and the ticket should be valid. If your colleague has a ticket then the ticket is valid between the two points printed on it and therefore the ticket can be used at any stations between those two points. In this case Romford, Chadwell Heath, Goodmayes, Seven Kings, Illford, Manor Park, Forest Gate, Maryland and Stratford are all valid on the ticket.

On validity via Upminster (first response)

The ticket is not valid to Upminster as that is further away than where the tickets ending point is. The ticket when being used from Emerson Park can only be used towards Romford/Liverpool Street.

I sent the reply

It has been suggested to me that the route Emerson Park to London via Upminster is valid for a couple of reasons:

Two of the routeing points of Emerson Park (Romford and Barking) pass the fare-check rule. The journey Emerson Park to Barking via Upminster is 9.25 miles, whereas the journey Emerson Park to Barking via Romford is approx 11 miles.
Emerson Park to London Liverpool Street via Romford is 14.5 miles. Emerson Park to Fenchurch Street via Upminster is 16.75 miles. As this is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, it is valid.

And received the following

I have checked the information you have sent me and can confirm that this is not true. The ticket is only valid between the two stations printed on the ticket and therefore by going to Upminster you would be going away from the London direction and therefore the ticket would be invalid because you're not within the points printed on the ticket. Train fares are not set on mileage and in addition to this c2c are based on the c2c line and the ticket in question is not transferable on to another operator's line.

Hmmm
 

yorkie

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How can the ticket only be valid "between the two stations printed on the ticket"; there are 3 stations printed on the ticket!

The Customer Services department for whatever the Great Eastern franchise happens to be called today are known for being appallingly lacking in knowledge, with several 'interesting' but incorrect responses from them published on this forum on a range of issues, so this isn't a surprise.

I would ask them this question:

"What are the permitted routes between Emerson Park and London?"

The answer to that is Upminster is permitted.

I would then ask them to confirm that this ticket is valid between Emerson Park and London, and therefore must be valid on permitted routes between Emerson Park and London.
 

34D

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"What are the permitted routes between Emerson Park and London?"

The answer to that is Upminster is permitted.

I would then ask them to confirm that this ticket is valid between Emerson Park and London, and therefore must be valid on permitted routes between Emerson Park and London.

I disagree. We aren't talking about an Emerson Park to London ticket (if we were, I 100% agree that the route via Upminster would be permitted).

We are talking about Gidea Park to London route aaa (also avail at) Emerson Park.

The point of these tickets is to offer an alternative route (usually for a little extra cost) so suiting people who may live between these two stations.

For example, FCC were considering introducing dual route tickets on their network a couple of years back (don't think they ever did), example Hitchin-London Terminals AAA luton. Such a ticket would be valid Luton-London but NOT (in my view) permitted routes Luton to Hitchin so (unless permitted by either Hit-london or Lut-london) not valid via Gospel Oak (which would presumably be a valid route Luton-Hitchin).

Comments please from others.

At the moment, I believe the TOC correctly advised that the ticket from Gidea Park was not valid via Upminster. Discuss
 

LexyBoy

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I disagree. We aren't talking about an Emerson Park to London ticket (if we were, I 100% agree that the route via Upminster would be permitted).

We are talking about Gidea Park to London route aaa (also avail at) Emerson Park.

The point of these tickets is to offer an alternative route (usually for a little extra cost) so suiting people who may live between these two stations.

For example, FCC were considering introducing dual route tickets on their network a couple of years back (don't think they ever did), example Hitchin-London Terminals AAA luton. Such a ticket would be valid Luton-London but NOT (in my view) permitted routes Luton to Hitchin so (unless permitted by either Hit-london or Lut-london) not valid via Gospel Oak (which would presumably be a valid route Luton-Hitchin).

Comments please from others.

But the argument is that via Upminster is valid for Emerson Park-London, not Emerson Park-Gidea Park. In your example that would be like saying that Hitchin-London is only valid to Kings Cross and not Moorgate, as Kings Cross is closer to St Pancras (or some other ad-hoc rubbish).

I'm not sure how I'd interpret the validity routeing between the two "starting" stations. I don't think it should be valid, but then the validity is described as "between ... and ..." so can you really say that one is an origin (along with the AAA station) and one a destination?
 

yorkie

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For example, FCC were considering introducing dual route tickets on their network a couple of years back (don't think they ever did), example Hitchin-London Terminals AAA luton. Such a ticket would be valid Luton-London
But that's exactly what our argument is!

If you say that AAA Emerson Park does not allow London-Emerson Park permitted routes, then what are the rules for determining permitted routes?

but NOT (in my view) permitted routes Luton to Hitchin
But that's the opposite of what I am arguing, surely?

I am arguing that London - Gidea Park AAA Emerson Park means:

  • London - Gidea Park; and
  • London - Emerson Park

By the same logic, London-Bexleyheath AAA Sidcup means:

  • London - Bexleyheath; and
  • London - Sidcup
Surely we are in agreement about the method and I wonder if you just need to check the map to see where these places are as I think there must be a misunderstanding here.

It appears that Greater Anglia's weird logic would have a London-Bexleyheath AAA Sidcup valid by the shortest route from Sidcup to Bexleyheath, so valid via Crayford, rather than what is clearly intended which is an alternative route to London.

However I doubt their customer service staff have the intelligence to figure this out. Speaking to an ex-employee who told me that their customer service staff asked him for advice because they knew he was knowledgeable even though he worked in a completely different department. They probably don't have anyone left with a clue.

They were clueless under NX, and they remain clueless now. I am not at all surprised. They have given poor advice to various forum members and they'll keep doing so because no-one seems capable of making them see any sort of sense whatsoever.


At the moment, I believe the TOC correctly advised that the ticket from Gidea Park was not valid via Upminster. Discuss
I spoke with someone at ATOC about this and they agreed with my interpretation (after looking up the mileages).
 
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34D

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Surely we are in agreement about the method and I wonder if you just need to check the map to see where these places are as I think there must be a misunderstanding here.

With the greatest of respect, I used to work in Romford, so I don't think I do.

The ticket is valid permitted routes Gidea Park to London. The ticket is also available at Emerson Park (instead of Gidea Park) if required.

In my view, this means that you can deviate from the routes of Gidea Park-London to serve Emerson Park.

I do not believe the routing (for when Emerson Park is being used) is necessarily the same as an Emerson Park-London ticket - though I have no source for that apart from my own version of logic.

As someone said a few posts above, let's have the OP reply (to both TOCs) and ask them what routes they may use for the Emerson Park leg.

I'm very happy to apologise if I'm wrong, however to my mind it is simple that this is a Gidea Park-London season, also available to deviate from that permitted route to go to Emerson Park (shortest route from that line of route to Emerson Park).

Is there an Emerson Park-London AAA gidea park? I don't think we would have a dispute over that ticket (if it exists).
 

yorkie

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With the greatest of respect, I used to work in Romford, so I don't think I do.

The ticket is valid permitted routes Gidea Park to London. The ticket is also available at Emerson Park (instead of Gidea Park) if required.

In my view, this means that you can deviate from the routes of Gidea Park-London to serve Emerson Park.
So the permitted routes are:
London - Gidea Park; and
Gidea Park-Emerson Park via Romford?

If so, where can you deviate from the route on a London - Bexleyheath? Like the Gidea Park example, can I only deviate near Bexleyheath, in which case travel should be via Crayford? I don't agree with that.
I do not believe the routing (for when Emerson Park is being used) is necessarily the same as an Emerson Park-London ticket - though I have no source for that apart from my own version of logic.
Hmm, but isn't a London - Bexleyheath AAA Sidcup ticket not usable as a London - Sidcup ticket? If not, what is it usable as?
As someone said a few posts above, let's have the OP reply (to both TOCs) and ask them what routes they may use for the Emerson Park leg.
Indeed I've given the OP some advice on how to take the matter further.
I'm very happy to apologise if I'm wrong, however to my mind it is simple that this is a Gidea Park-London season, also available to deviate from that permitted route to go to Emerson Park (shortest route from that line of route to Emerson Park).
Hmm, but shortest route from Bexleyheath to Sidcup is going to be via Crayford so I am not sure that should be the logic.
Is there an Emerson Park-London AAA gidea park? I don't think we would have a dispute over that ticket (if it exists).
No, there isn't, the price is identical to the Gidea Park AAA Emerson Park ticket though (so there's no anomaly here; no revenue reason why the ticket should not be valid as a London - Emerson Park).

Edit: actually I couldn't find it in Avantix Traveller but someone from ATOC was going to try to get it set up from Emerson Park AAA Gidea Park; can anyone with up-to-date access check if this has been done please?
 

John @ home

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We aren't talking about an Emerson Park to London ticket (if we were, I 100% agree that the route via Upminster would be permitted).

We are talking about Gidea Park to London route aaa (also avail at) Emerson Park.

The point of these tickets is to offer an alternative route (usually for a little extra cost) so suiting people who may live between these two stations.
But this argument takes no account of the prices:
  • Gidea Park - London Terminals route Any Permitted - 7 days £41; Annual £1640
  • Gidea Park - London Terminals route AAA Emerson Park - 7 days £41; Annual £1640
  • Emerson Park - London Terminals route Any Permitted - 7 days £41; Annual £1640
 
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