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Had problems taking pictures of the railways?

ralphchadkirk

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Sorry, didn't make myself clear. Firstly, I am not a lawyer, so I don't know how accurate this is. If someone is arrested, or at least stopped, then the person doing so might find themselves in very hot water because it might turn out to be false arrest/imprisonment. I don't really want to encourage the "see you in court" culture, but it's a possibility.

Neither am I :)

False imprisonment and those types of things look like a very sticky area of law, so I imagine it's very particular and I doubt that this would be considered it. Could be wrong of course.
 
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bAzTNM

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He certainly wasn't going to let me through, and I'd like to know who he would be sending for too.
 

onein37

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If its of any help to anyone,i never had any problems photing at Reading,Didcot,Oxford or Banbury stations on Monday.
 

NY Yankee

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The same thing happens in the United States. Even in the NYC Subway, where photography is legal, photographers are often harassed.
 

anthony263

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Slightly not to do with railways but this just so it isnt just the railway enthusiast who suffer abuse etc when out photographing:

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/D...enthusiast-s/story-16010669-detail/story.html

Hopefully First Cymru will speak to this driver. Stagecoach have already taken action with their drivers and posted notices in all depots warning drivers not to abuse bus photographers and I have to say I have never necountered any problems when photographing buses in the valleys.
 

trentside

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Slightly not to do with railways but this just so it isnt just the railway enthusiast who suffer abuse etc when out photographing:

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/D...enthusiast-s/story-16010669-detail/story.html

Hopefully First Cymru will speak to this driver. Stagecoach have already taken action with their drivers and posted notices in all depots warning drivers not to abuse bus photographers and I have to say I have never necountered any problems when photographing buses in the valleys.

The comments on the story are also interesting. It shows how ignorant many people are about photography and privacy laws - so many commenters go on about needing people's permission to take their picture, even in a public place. It's no wonder a minority of staff on the railway think photography is 'illegal' as many members of the public apparently think similar things.
 

causton

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I went out just now to take some photos of some buses and a driver covered her face with her hand - the thing is, due to the conditions the windscreens were so reflective I can't make out many of the other driver's faces so all I can see inside the bus is her hand! Better than shouting abuse at me but still...
 

jon0844

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I think more people believe it's illegal to take a photograph of someone else without permission than know or accept it's perfectly legal - right up to even taking photographs into private property FROM public property (if you want privacy, grow a large hedge or close the blinds).

If a photo you take includes a child in it, I'd expect almost all parents will be quick to conclude that it's illegal and the photographer should be immediately placed on the sex offenders register. Or, failing that, you can possibly expect to be assaulted as the parent takes the law into his/her own hands and demands you hand over the film/delete the file. This has happened to photo journalists who have taken photos at events with loads of people, then had one take exception to having their kid in it.

The ignorance is widespread, but it's hardly surprising that so many people get hassle for taking photos. I've had plenty of PCSOs think it's illegal and I've also had hassle from police officers.

When it comes to the police, I am a little more confused as I'm never sure if they actually knew the law or not. I've had bother (even threatened with arrest once - although obviously not actioned) and then shown my press card. Suddenly they've backed off, which suggests they were fully aware of the law and were playing on MY ignorance to exert their power. That's even more worrying than them simply not knowing as they're clearly bullies who should possibly not be allowed any authority at all!

I went out just now to take some photos of some buses and a driver covered her face with her hand - the thing is, due to the conditions the windscreens were so reflective I can't make out many of the other driver's faces so all I can see inside the bus is her hand! Better than shouting abuse at me but still...

The best for me was a Uno bus driver that had been abusing an Arriva bus (the bus itself, not the driver - by kicking it), prompting me to grab a photo - which she saw me take. She then swore at me while getting back on the bus and danced around giving me the finger while pulling away (no hands on the wheel) and the icing on the cake was her calling me a pervert for taking her photo. Sadly, the photo I took of her at the wheel was too blurred to be of any use, so with hindsight I should have switched to video recording as this would have been an awesome YouTube hit!

I think she was having her 'Falling Down' moment. I've not seen her on any buses since that incident so I think it's quite likely more than one person reported her - and if the bus had working CCTV, her actions might well have been caught on film too. :)
 
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anthony263

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The best for me was a Uno bus driver that had been abusing an Arriva bus (the bus itself, not the driver - by kicking it), prompting me to grab a photo - which she saw me take. She then swore at me while getting back on the bus and danced around giving me the finger while pulling away (no hands on the wheel) and the icing on the cake was her calling me a pervert for taking her photo. Sadly, the photo I took of her at the wheel was too blurred to be of any use, so with hindsight I should have switched to video recording as this would have been an awesome YouTube hit!

I think she was having her 'Falling Down' moment. I've not seen her on any buses since that incident so I think it's quite likely more than one person reported her - and if the bus had working CCTV, her actions might well have been caught on film too. :)


She would have found herself being hauled into the managers office if she was with stagecoach as they seem to have warned all their staff.

I have visited some bus depot and generally the staff are always welcoming although they do ask that you were a high vis and dont act stupid.

Personally I actively avoid taking any photos where there are kids about as I know a few others photographers do as well.
 

jon0844

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Yes, not taking photo of children (of any age) is probably wise - but sometimes unavoidable.

Clearly it's different if you're taking a photo of a single child, but the fact is it would still be legal and not automatically render you a paedophile. A parent would be well within his/her rights to ask why such a photo was taken, but not to have the photo deleted or assault the photographer.

A good few years ago, I took a photo of two young girls who were 'playing' in the main road outside my house. They'd taken a kitchen knife and placed it in the road to presumably burst a car tyre as it drove by. They failed miserably, I might add, despite multiple attempts by going back out to re-position it.

I called the police and also took a photo as evidence, in case they ran off. The police asked to see the photo, and then warned me that I shouldn't take photos of children. However, they did at least go and speak to the parents (and it didn't happen again) and didn't suddenly come back to arrest me. It did make me think against doing this ever again.
 

trentside

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She would have found herself being hauled into the managers office if she was with stagecoach as they seem to have warned all their staff.

The staff around the East Midlands are certainly aware of enthusiasts, as both the current and former managing directors were at least occasional enthusiasts.

I've actually taken a few pictures of buses in my village today. One driver didn't really clock me, and the other two both smiled and acknowledged me. I had my confidence knocked by a couple of incidents with other operators drivers a few years back, but always feel happy taking pictures of Stagecoach and TrentBarton!
 

GB

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I think more people believe it's illegal to take a photograph of someone else without permission than know or accept it's perfectly legal - right up to even taking photographs into private property FROM public property (if you want privacy, grow a large hedge or close the blinds).

That depends on the circumstances and what your trying to photograph. Trying to grab a photograph of the inside of someones house from the street for example will leave you very exposed.
 

jon0844

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What circumstances exactly? I'm intrigued to know what exceptions there are to the law that says you can take photos in public, which includes anything visible from a public location.

The only exception I can think of is looking over a high fence or bushes, but not an open room in a house with no curtains or any obstructions from a road. Otherwise, how would the paparazzi get their photos?
 

Ferret

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Reports today of it not being permitted to take photos at Marylebone due to the Olympics! Here we go again.....
 

ralphchadkirk

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What circumstances exactly? I'm intrigued to know what exceptions there are to the law that says you can take photos in public, which includes anything visible from a public location.

Using a telephoto zoom lens through someone's bedroom window would be frowned upon I imagine.

It all depends on whether it is deemed an invasion of privacy, and whether that person would have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

But GB is right, there are circumstances where the photographer being on public property is not a defence.
 

jon0844

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And what are they?

I'd like to know what they are, not just be told that there are exceptions or special circumstances.

Sure, there will be incidents that would be frowned upon, but illegal? That's all that is important. If someone wants to take a civil action after a photo is taken, that's a different story. Nor are we arguing about what is morally acceptable or not. Just legal or illegal.
 

jon0844

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I should have known some people might argue human rights when it came to having a photo taken of them!
 

anthony263

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Reports today of it not being permitted to take photos at Marylebone due to the Olympics! Here we go again.....

I was wondering when this excuse would come up.

Seriously if thats the case then can we expect all these tourists being arrested then
 

ralphchadkirk

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I should have known some people might argue human rights when it came to having a photo taken of them!

And what's wrong with that? I'm sure you wouldn't be very happy if I stood outside your house every day taking zoom photos of you in your bedroom would you? I doubt that greatly. I'm sure you would be wanting a stop to be put to it.


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221129

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My interests lie not only in rail but buses and Emergency Vehicles too and the only issues i have had have been from one paramedic from SouthWestern Ambulance Service the Police are usuallly fine with it all.
 

jon0844

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And what's wrong with that? I'm sure you wouldn't be very happy if I stood outside your house every day taking zoom photos of you in your bedroom would you? I doubt that greatly. I'm sure you would be wanting a stop to be put to it.

I asked about the legality of it, not whether you (or I) would be ****ed off.

Being ****ed off is totally different to calling the police and having the photographer arrested, locked up, put on a register and having the photos/video deleted. All it means is that, once again, we're back to having people saying you can't take photos and making up a reason - which this time is not liking it, or pleading a breach of human rights.

On that basis, we're back to square one. It means that people will be able to say you can't take photos of them, cover their faces, attack and assault you and so on.

And isn't the photo of someone on a street, even if the happen to be in private property (such as taking a photo of a shop front, which shows people inside) rather more realistic than someone standing with a telephoto lens taking photos of someone in their bedroom. Presumably that person is in a state of undress too, just to make it all the more sinister (and if so, is more likely to be done than the photographer if it can be seen from outside). What an exaggerated example to justify stopping people from taking photos!
 

ralphchadkirk

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Goodness me, what an ill informed rant. As I posted twice IF someone has a REASONABLE expectation of privacy then it MAY be considered an invasion of privacy in which case there MIGHT be a case to answer.


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GB

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...and who mentioned calling the police and getting the photographer arrested??. I merely said it would leave the photographer exposed.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Actually, I apologise for the above post. It was unnecessarily rude of me.


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GB

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And isn't the photo of someone on a street, even if the happen to be in private property (such as taking a photo of a shop front, which shows people inside) rather more realistic than someone standing with a telephoto lens taking photos of someone in their bedroom. Presumably that person is in a state of undress too, just to make it all the more sinister (and if so, is more likely to be done than the photographer if it can be seen from outside). What an exaggerated example to justify stopping people from taking photos!

Don't try and back paddle. This is exactly the reasons I said it depends on the circumstances and what your trying to photograph.

It was you that came out with the carte blanche statement of saying its ok to photograph anything private as long as its taken from a public place.

Perhaps you would like to post the law that supposedly says you can do it.
 

district

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What would be helpful is if someone could either create or find a photographic law factsheet, printable to be shown to authorities if any issues were to arise. I have looked, but perhaps not hard enough as I couldn't find anything. Can anyone help?
 

jon0844

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Why should I have to waste time writing what the law says when I've been asking others on here to do the same thing to justify their misguided opinion?

[Edit; District; this post isn't in reply to your message - it was to previous ones! There ARE documents to be found on the net, as well as in print. I will try and dig a copy out, although I believe that one rather detailed 'print out and keep with you' document has been posted on this forum before]

I'm being told on here that there are exceptions that stop people taking photographs in public, and I'd like to know what they are. I've asked a few times now, and nobody has stated any law that stops photos being taken, just vague things like 'leaving the photographer exposed' and infringements of human rights. I can't wait until we see rail staff, bus drivers and police officers using that one.

...and who mentioned calling the police and getting the photographer arrested??. I merely said it would leave the photographer exposed.

What exactly does that mean? I take a photo, but can't be arrested - yet I'm exposed. To what exactly? Being beaten up? Perhaps, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with taking the photo being legal or illegal. You're arguing about whether it's socially acceptable or moral to do so - which is totally irrelevant.

Are there any actual cases of anyone going to the ECHR and winning for having had someone take a photograph of them?

No wonder some people go mad about people taking photos of them. How we ended up with an example of a photographer taking photos of someone in their bedroom, I do not know.

I'll gladly drop out of this now as it's going to end up adding another 50 pages of nonsense. I know the rules as they stand and they've been stated enough times by my union, which has also received assurances from the police that photographers and reporters won't be hassled (sadly, not always the case - but it seems to be getting better) and clearly nobody is going to back up their claims on here with anything more than hearsay or opinion.

It's pretty obvious that some people will always believe there are reasons to disallow photographs (and indeed video), and people who may well argue that the people getting in trouble for taking photos are probably guilty of something or else they wouldn't be harassed, so we'll continue to have posts from people who are told they aren't allowed to take photos for some made-up reason.
 

phil8715

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I remember in the 80's I was at Portadown railway station in Northern Ireland and I attempted take a photo of the Enterprise, I got such a bollocking from station staff. I was only about 15 at the time.

I understand about the troubles of Northern Ireland and I suppose they might have thought that I was a Republican terrorist. I now fully understand why they didn't like me photographing trains.


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