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FCC Notice Of Intention To Prosecute - Advice Required Please

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duncanp

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Hello. I apologise if this post is rather long, but I think it is important to state the full facts of the case.

On July 13th 2012 I was (an in fact still am) in possession of the following rail tickets:-
• A annual travelcard for Zones 1 - 3 with an expiry date of 21st October 2012, issued by London Underground on an Oystercard.
• A monthly travelcard season from St Albans to Zone 4 with an expiry date of 27th July 2012, issued by FCC at St Albans ticket office.
On July 13th 2012 I boarded the 16:48 train to Brighton at St Albans with the intention of travelling to St Pancras. This train runs non stop to St Pancras.
During the course of the journey, both my tickets were inspected, and the inspector said that
• The monthly travelcard was only valid to the last station in Zone 4, which he said was Mill Hill Broadway, but was in fact Hendon.
• The annual travelcard was only valid from the first station in Zone 3, which is Hendon.
Therefore according to him I did not have a valid ticket to travel between Mill Hill Broadway and Hendon, and he demanded that I pay a £20 Penalty Fare.
When I refused to do this, he filled out the form intending to report me for possible prosecution.
Susbequent investigations and a strongly worded e-mail to FCC Customer Services revealed the inspector's mistake, both regarding the last station in Zone 4, and the fact that it is legal under section 19a of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage to use the two tickets specified to travel from St Albans to St Pancras on a train which does not stop at the station at which I change from one ticket to the other. (Hendon). I have an e-mail in my possession from FCC which confirms this.
So imagine my surprise when AFTER this I then received a “Notice Of Intention To Prosecute” letter from FCC for the alleged offence of “entering a train for purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel”. A subsequent conversation with the Prosecutions Department revealed that the facts as reported to them were that the only ticket I had in my possession at that time was the annual travelcard for Zones 1 – 3.
I have e-mailed an electronic copy of the monthly travelcard to the FCC Prosecutions Department and am awaiting their reply, and I realise that their issuing of the notice is understandable given the facts as reported to them.
However it is clear that the facts of the case have been misrepresented to the Prosecutions Department, either by administrative error or deliberate falsification of the facts by the inspector when he realised his mistakes. (an allegation which I realise that I cannot prove without further evidence)

I cannot prove absolutely that I did have the monthly travelcard with me, but circumstantial evidence would suggest that I did, as there are barriers at St Albans, and I would not have been able to gain access to the train otherwise.

However I cannot see how FCC can prove that I didn’t have the ticket with me. As this is a criminal offence, I would have thought that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution, to prove this beyond all reasonable doubt.
I think that the facts of the case as I have outlined above would suggest that I did have the ticket in my possession, and therefore was entitled to make the journey suggested.

So my question at the end of all this is, if this case does proceed to a prosecution, on whom does the burden of proof lie?

Any advice or comments would be welcome.
 
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thedbdiboy

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I realise that you may want to resolve this more quickly, but I have to say based on the facts supplied, this would seem a classic case of 'see you in court' as they need to prove the offence (presumably that of not being able to produce a valid ticket) and in this case, you were in fact in possession of such.

BTW if it is a byelaw 18 offence they are prosecuting you under, then it is not a criminal one but a 'strict liability' one. Form your account it appears that both tickets were produced when requested - if indeed that was the case then the prosecution cannot succeed.
 

duncanp

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The ticket I had was a monthly travelcard season from St Albans to Zone 4.

Therefore, when travelling from St Albans in a southbound direction, it is valid to the boundary of Zone 4 with Zone 3. I have written confirmation from First Capital Connect that this is correct.

I have in fact been doing the same journey using the same combination of tickets since the end of October last year. My tickets have been inspected numerous times during this period, and no inspector has ever suggested that this combination of tickets was invalid.

The issue is that the facts have been misrepresented to the FCC Prosecutions Department. They are saying that I did not have the St Albans to Zone 4 ticket in my possession on the day in question, and that I was attempting to travel from St Albans to London using only the Zones 1 - 3 travelcard.

So the real issue is, do I have to prove that I did have the ticket in my possession, or do FCC have to prove that I didn't have the ticket in my possession. As the offence in question is a criminal one, I would have thought that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution.
 

Ferret

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*sits back and waits for Jon Morris to come steaming in from the pavillion end with a scorching reply*

Seriously though, I'm not sure you need our advice here Mr OP. If FCC themselves have written to you to say that the combination is valid, send copies of everything back to the Prosecutions department with a covering letter in effect saying 'you said this'. I suspect it's a case of the departments not talking to each other rather than anything sinister, and the RPI concerned honestly thinks you've done something wrong, when his superiors think you haven't!
 

Paul Kelly

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I assume the "St Albans to Zone 4" ticket was actually to "Boundary Zone 4"? In that case, it is valid to the START of Zone 4 (i.e. the Zone 5/4 boundary), not to the Zone 4/3 boundary.

I think it would be clearer to say that boundary zone tickets are always valid to/from the OUTER boundary of the given zone. Whether that is the "start" or the "end" of that zone depends on whether you are travelling towards London or away from London!

Therefore, when travelling from St Albans in a southbound direction, it is valid to the boundary of Zone 4 with Zone 3. I have written confirmation from First Capital Connect that this is correct.

Update: That is correct when we are talking about a Travelcard with validity in Zones 4-6. Combined with a Travelcard with validity in Zones 1-3, that is a valid combination.
 
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eastdyke

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*sits back and waits for Jon Morris to come steaming in from the pavillion end with a scorching reply*

Seriously though, I'm not sure you need our advice here Mr OP. If FCC themselves have written to you to say that the combination is valid, send copies of everything back to the Prosecutions department with a covering letter in effect saying 'you said this'. I suspect it's a case of the departments not talking to each other rather than anything sinister, and the RPI concerned honestly thinks you've done something wrong, when his superiors think you haven't!

Seems though that the RPI has omitted to include in his report that the OP actually presented both tickets and that the OP is now concerned as to how prove that both tickets were presented.

Not quite the Jon Morris situation methinks.
 
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island

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The tickets held are a Travelcard from St Albans to London Zones 4-6 and a Travelcard for London Zones 1-3, correct? This is fully valid (even without Hendon being dual zoned) and the answer to FCC can be "see you in court, and I will be seeking to fix you with my costs".

If they are saying only the Z1-3 Travelcard was presented, that would be perjury if done under oath, I think.
 

Anon Mouse

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I'm no expert on London fares, but would a ticket from the last stop in zone 3 to the first stop in zone 4 not be required? (in addition to the stated tickets)
 

island

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I assume the "St Albans to Zone 4" ticket was actually to "Boundary Zone 4"? In that case, it is valid to the START of Zone 4 (i.e. the Zone 5/4 boundary), not to the Zone 4/3 boundary.

In effect, you had no ticket to travel in Zone 4.

The ticket you needed was a Boundary Zone 3 ticket.

x2 This is what I was thinking, the inspector was right in saying your ticket was not valid for the journey you were making.

Both wrong. The OP states both tickets were seasons, and you cannot get a season ticket to a boundary zone.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm no expert on London fares, but would a ticket from the last stop in zone 3 to the first stop in zone 4 not be required? (in addition to the stated tickets)

If by stop you mean station, (a) no, as the zones are contiguous and (b) in this case, the last station in zone 4 is dual-zoned and also in zone 3, so the ticket you are making reference to would be a ticket from Hendon to Hendon, which is absurd.
 

Paul Kelly

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Both wrong. The OP states both tickets were seasons, and you cannot get a season ticket to a boundary zone.
Ah, good point. So it must have been a Zones 4-6 season then. Sorry, I got confused by Brucey's post above and didn't read the OP carefully enough...
 

Brucey

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Apologies from me also, I saw "Zone 4", so assumed a boundary zone.

It would appear that the combination of tickets was perfectly valid.
 

Anon Mouse

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If by stop you mean station, (a) no, as the zones are contiguous and (b) in this case, the last station in zone 4 is dual-zoned and also in zone 3, so the ticket you are making reference to would be a ticket from Hendon to Hendon, which is absurd.

Thats splitting hairs don't you think? :lol: Like I admitted I am no expert on the fares and zones in the London area and was not doubting you! I was thinking along the lines of the principle of a combination of WYPTE and GMPTE zonals requiring a Marsden to Greenfield to cover for the boundry of the two areas being in the middle of Standege Tunnel....
 

b0b

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If they are saying only the Z1-3 Travelcard was presented, that would be perjury if done under oath, I think.

That appears be what the prosecutions dept is claiming, and likely they're getting that from the inspectors report. So the OP needs to see what paperwork he has from the incident and what it says.
 

island

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Thats splitting hairs don't you think? :lol: Like I admitted I am no expert on the fares and zones in the London area and was not doubting you! I was thinking along the lines of the principle of a combination of WYPTE and GMPTE zonals requiring a Marsden to Greenfield to cover for the boundry of the two areas being in the middle of Standege Tunnel....

Wasn't meaning to have a go at you so apologies if it came across that way.
 

Monty

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Both wrong. The OP states both tickets were seasons, and you cannot get a season ticket to a boundary zone.

My apologies, my route knowledge of the MML is not brilliant. However what confused me was the OP insisted he had a St Albans to Zone 4 travelcard season, as you have pointed out such a ticket does not exist. The OP must have meant a St Albans-Z5-6 travel card. In which case that combination is perfectly valid. Sorry for the confusion caused! :)
 

duncanp

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The ticket that I held, in conjunction with a with an annual travelcard season for Zones 1- 3, was a travelcard season from St Albans to Zone 4 -6. Such a ticket does exist, and for the purposes of illustration I have uploaded an image of it.

Apologies if my rather lengthy post confused anyone.

I suspect that FCC may allow this case to "wither on the vine". By that I mean that they will not proceed with the prosecution, but neither will they write to me and admit their mistake. In other words they will do nothing and hope that I will just forget about it.
 

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Robsignals

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Providing RPIs with personal cctv cameras would solve this, unless there was a loss of the crucial section.

I suspect that FCC may allow this case to "wither on the vine". By that I mean that they will not proceed with the prosecution, but neither will they write to me and admit their mistake. In other words they will do nothing and hope that I will just forget about it.

You could threaten to take them to court for slander, defamation or whatever with their letter as evidence...of course you might be prepared to settle out of court.
 

WillPS

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DuncanP, I would write a response to the "Intention to Prosecute" stating the facts, and another letter to FCC customer services asking for suitable compensation and that the individual involved be retrained.
 

b0b

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DuncanP, I would write a response to the "Intention to Prosecute" stating the facts, and another letter to FCC customer services asking for suitable compensation and that the individual involved be retrained.

First I'd check any paperwork he has from the incident, if the report (and prosecution dept followup) says he only showed a Z1-3 ticket, he's first got to clear up the discrepancy as its still technically a failure to show valid tickets for travel.
 

island

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You could threaten to take them to court for slander, defamation or whatever with their letter as evidence...of course you might be prepared to settle out of court.

Defamation only applies to statements that are published. You can say whatever you want in private behind closed doors or in a letter, as I understand it.
 

Robsignals

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Defamation only applies to statements that are published. You can say whatever you want in private behind closed doors or in a letter, as I understand it.

in the days of typists it was said a letter was evidence that the sender had committed verbal slander during dictation, I think.
 

tdg1986

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Defamation only applies to statements that are published. You can say whatever you want in private behind closed doors or in a letter, as I understand it.

Defamation that is published is libel.

Defamation that is not published is slander.
 

tony_mac

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Defamation that is published is libel.

Defamation that is not published is slander.
This is getting way off-topic, and is not at all helpful to the OP, but that's not exactly accurate either.
http://www.humphreys.co.uk/private_solicitors/libel_claims_1.htm

But, yes, it is up to them to prove that you didn't show the ticket (although a convincing witness could easily be enough proof a magistrate needs); I imagine, at this stage, that this is just a mis-communication. There's not much you can do but await their response at the moment.
 

island

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Defamation that is published is libel.

Defamation that is not published is slander.

That is quite incorrect. The distinction between libel and slander was abolished in the UK in 1996, before which libel referred to written statements and slander referred to non-written statements; slander was actionable only with proof of specific damage whereas libel had no such restriction.

Apologies for taking matters further off-topic.

As tony_mac mentions, in court it will be for FCC to prove that a ticket was not shown. Make certain that you retain the valid St Albans to London Zones 4-6 ticket and all your correspondence; I strongly expect the prosecution will be quietly dropped here, or if not, that it will be unsuccessful.
 

bb21

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The ticket that I held, in conjunction with a with an annual travelcard season for Zones 1- 3, was a travelcard season from St Albans to Zone 4 -6. Such a ticket does exist, and for the purposes of illustration I have uploaded an image of it.

What people are saying is that season tickets do not exist for any Boundary Zone ticket, so there would not be a season ticket from wherever to Boundary Zone 4. Of course season tickets do exist as Travelcards from outside the zonal area to Zones 4-6.

I don't have much else to add as others have explained that your combination is perfectly valid under NRCoC Condition 19(a).

Apologies for taking matters further off-topic.

Agreed. I was just about to say please start a new topic if anyone wishes to continue the debate along these lines.
 

carriageline

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Jesus christ, I see the "ambulance chasing", "claim Britian", is rift on here. No offence to the OP, but of it was serious, why on earth would he deserve any compo? It's not slander either, someone's made a mistake somewhere. Jesus.

To the op, hope it all gets sorted, with a decent apology too!
 

Robsignals

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Jesus christ, I see the "ambulance chasing", "claim Britian", is rift on here. No offence to the OP, but of it was serious, why on earth would he deserve any compo? It's not slander either, someone's made a mistake somewhere. Jesus.

To the op, hope it all gets sorted, with a decent apology too!

A very serious mistake with potentially devastating consequences.
 

b0b

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As tony_mac mentions, in court it will be for FCC to prove that a ticket was not shown.

Which will be what the report at the time of the incident says. If that only mentions "Z1-3 Travelcard shown on FCC service at some station north of Hendon". then what? That's why the OP needs to check the paperwork - hopefully he has a copy of what was submitted to the FCC Prosecution team.
 
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