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ConHome: Close 30% of rail stations

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flymo

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Just for my own curiosity I had a look at the stats for Scotland and if the lower 30% were closed (unlikely I know but just out of curiosity), there would be nothing north from Inverness beyond Dingwall, either to Thurso, Wick or Kyle.
The Fort William / Mallaig line would be non-stop Dumbarton C - Fort William then non-stop to Mallaig. Similarly Oban would be non-stop from Dumbarton C.

There may not be that many passengers at the intermediate stations but I would suggest the railway provides vital links to the local communities along the way.
 
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Holly

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From the blog:-
(5) Create a third class on London commuter routes – standing room only. Taking seats out is much cheaper than lengthening trains and platforms.
Prohibited by the Railway Regulation Act 1844.
And rightly so; before that Act of Parliament "standing room only" trains were allowed.
 

cuccir

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Prohibited by the Railway Regulation Act 1844.
And rightly so; before that Act of Parliament "standing room only" trains were allowed.

Rightly so, in 1844. Now, health and safety legislation would ensure that any such trains were adequately designed, both inside and out, to make it as safe as possible. Think a tube train, but with the seats at the side moved out.

In principle it is a good idea. However, I suspect in practice it would create more problems: how to prevent overcrowding, how to control it, how to emphasise that a standard class ticket didn't automatically guarantee a seat, how to ensure equal access for passengers with access issue, and so on. Fundamentally, all of these would add costs, which would reduce the liklihood of such a class of travel making money.
 

rdwarr

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If you close the least busy 30% of stations every few years you'll soon be left with not many stations.
 

yorksrob

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"We should accept that where passenger flows are too low, lines should close. Cross subsidies within rail make little economic or social sense."

This is just plain stupidity. The railway operates as a network and feeder routes are needed to deliver passengers to and from the mainline. Without these, the mainlines themselves become less useful and frankly less viable. In this context, it makes sense for feeder routes to be cross-subsidised as much as possible from the main lines, where more passengers are likely to use them for onward travel rather than from general taxation which will inevitably include a proportion of people who don't use the train at all.

For these reasons, it makes no economic or social sense not to have cross-subsidies in rail. This was recognised by the private entrepreneurs who built and ran the railways up until nationalisation in 1947. The cinderella world in which mainline services can be operated entirely seperately from other routes simply has no precedent or credibility outside of some right of centre theorist circles.

Also, I'm curious as to how the commentator has decided upon his figure of 30% of stations that should close. DoT actually publishes station usage figures (available to all if you care to check) which can be ranked by numbers of entries and exits. However, out of the 2531 stations listed, the vast majority of those past 1772 (marking the beginning of the 30% least heavily used by descending order) are on routes linking more heavily used stations, so if Leunig really is proposing a massive rationalisation involving route closures, he must inevitably include a lot of stations in the better used 70%. Has he even done any sort of analysis as to how much money the closure of an unstaffed wayside station, where the only costs are operating the lamp posts and occasional maintenance (such as repainting the white line on the platform every couple of decades) would actually save ? I suspect that this would be miniscule in comparison the the overall cost of running the railway.
 

tbtc

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The railway operates as a network and feeder routes are needed to deliver passengers to and from the mainline

True, but look at how few passengers these stations are actually delivering. Would the railway really miss Golf Street, Breich and Tees Valley Airport?

Or, put it another way, how many station's worth of passengers are First planning to increase WCML passengers by?

(good maths work flymo - nice to see some figures behind the initial claims)
 

yorksrob

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True, but look at how few passengers these stations are actually delivering. Would the railway really miss Golf Street, Breich and Tees Valley Airport?

Or, put it another way, how many station's worth of passengers are First planning to increase WCML passengers by?

(good maths work flymo - nice to see some figures behind the initial claims)

You certainly have a point tbtc - although for me, it would still come down to how much it would actually save (I suspect not much).

What really makes me angry about the report though is the clear misrepresentation of the least used 30% of stations statistic to justify what would be (because the lowest used 30% of stations aren't conveniently situated along their own exclusive branchlines) far more serious and damaging route closures.

With regard nto the "standing class" idea, it might make those who complained so bitterly about the VEP's think again :lol:
 

tbtc

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You certainly have a point tbtc - although for me, it would still come down to how much it would actually save (I suspect not much)

I'd like to believe the claims that all it takes to keep a station open is a new lightbulb every year plus a lick of paint once a decade, but I suspect that in today's bureaucratic railway it does cost more than seems reasonable (even if a station is hardly used it still needs to be maintained sufficiently to stop people from tripping up and suing Network Rail/ the TOC etc. Plus with DDA requirements requiring places to be more "accessible", its not going to get any cheaper.

(I'm sure there'll be a Daily Mail article outraged at the hundreds of pounds it cost to replace one lightbulb due to health and safety etc etc)
 

al green

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Its the silly season, as far as the media is concerned, and this guy is a right-wing loon - a match made in heaven.
 

yorksrob

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I'd like to believe the claims that all it takes to keep a station open is a new lightbulb every year plus a lick of paint once a decade, but I suspect that in today's bureaucratic railway it does cost more than seems reasonable (even if a station is hardly used it still needs to be maintained sufficiently to stop people from tripping up and suing Network Rail/ the TOC etc. Plus with DDA requirements requiring places to be more "accessible", its not going to get any cheaper.

(I'm sure there'll be a Daily Mail article outraged at the hundreds of pounds it cost to replace one lightbulb due to health and safety etc etc)

Even if it does cost hundreds of pounds to change a lightbulb, I suspect that a lot of that will be due to the requirement of safety training, specialist plant, additional staff etc which would need to be in place to replace lightbulbs at busier stations.

Either way, it's these sort of costs which should be looked at across the network as a whole rather than by closing selected stations.
 

Greenback

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Even if it does cost hundreds of pounds to change a lightbulb, I suspect that a lot of that will be due to the requirement of safety training, specialist plant, additional staff etc which would need to be in place to replace lightbulbs at busier stations.

Either way, it's these sort of costs which should be looked at across the network as a whole rather than by closing selected stations.

Agreed. Though I suspect that it would be difficult to quantify exactly how much it costs to keep a station open compared to how much revenue might be generated by that station.
 

pemma

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Or, put it another way, how many station's worth of passengers are First planning to increase WCML passengers by?

That opens another debate.

Mobberley and Lostock Gralam are both village stations with fairly low numbers. Mobberley with 14,746 passengers per annum and Lostock Gralam with 18,446. Now from a financial point of view Mobberley is quite affluent and has a lot of business people living there, while Lostock Gralam isn't so First WC would probably get more of the 14,746 passengers at Mobberley than the 18,446 passengers at Lostock Gralam who would mainly travel to Northwich or Greenbank.

So to satisfy First WC the station with the higher number of passengers gets closed.
 

12CSVT

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Some stations only have low passenger usage because they have very few services calling there. Reddish South, Denton, Teesside Airport, and the intermediate stations between Dundee and Carnoustie spring to mind.
 

ainsworth74

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Some stations only have low passenger usage because they have very few services calling there. Reddish South, Denton, Teesside Airport, and the intermediate stations between Dundee and Carnoustie spring to mind.

You could stop every Northern service at Teesside Airport and I still think it's usage would be very low.
 

pemma

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You could stop every Northern service at Teesside Airport and I still think it's usage would be very low.

If there was a complimentary shuttle bus between the terminal and the station then passenger numbers would probably pick up.
 

Gareth Marston

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I'd like to believe the claims that all it takes to keep a station open is a new lightbulb every year plus a lick of paint once a decade, but I suspect that in today's bureaucratic railway it does cost more than seems reasonable (even if a station is hardly used it still needs to be maintained sufficiently to stop people from tripping up and suing Network Rail/ the TOC etc. Plus with DDA requirements requiring places to be more "accessible", its not going to get any cheaper.

(I'm sure there'll be a Daily Mail article outraged at the hundreds of pounds it cost to replace one lightbulb due to health and safety etc etc)

The "business case" that Atkins did for TraCC into looking at reopening Carno station on the Cambrian Mainline came out with a figure of £30K per annum maintenance budget for a 4 car single platform , bus shelter and 20 space car park.
 

tbtc

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Some stations only have low passenger usage because they have very few services calling there. Reddish South, Denton, Teesside Airport, and the intermediate stations between Dundee and Carnoustie spring to mind.

There are some stations where you'd have to increase services significantly to tempt people from the parallel bus service (Balmossie, Barry Links, Golf Street etc).

And others where there's just never going to be sufficient demand to justify a proper heavy rail service (Breich etc) because there's such little population.

As I said, heavy rail isn't the answer to everything.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The "business case" that Atkins did for TraCC into looking at reopening Carno station on the Cambrian Mainline came out with a figure of £30K per annum maintenance budget for a 4 car single platform , bus shelter and 20 space car park.

Good to have a benchmark figure, thanks
 

yorksrob

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The "business case" that Atkins did for TraCC into looking at reopening Carno station on the Cambrian Mainline came out with a figure of £30K per annum maintenance budget for a 4 car single platform , bus shelter and 20 space car park.

That's great work. I've done a few rough spreadsheet calculations, and if you multiply 760 (representing the 30 % of least used stations) by 30k you get a grand total of £22,800,000 theoretical maintenance cost (I know some of these stations may have more than one platform and others might not have a car park etc but stick with me).

Now, if you add up the total entries and exits for the 760 least used stations (2010-2011 figures) these come to 18,490,650 altogether.

Now divide my theoretical maintenance cost by the total number of entries and exits you get 1.2330556. i.e. each of those entries and exits only need to generate £1.24 to cover total maintenance. £1.24 for a single, £2.50 for a return. Hardly a big drag on the railway economy I think.
 

tbtc

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So if Barry Links costs £30,000 a year to maintain (ignoring the cost of the train slowing, stopping and accelerating, slowing everyone else's journey down), divided by the 74 entries/ exists and you get £405 per journey (£810 for a return ticket)?
 

yorksrob

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So if Barry Links costs £30,000 a year to maintain (ignoring the cost of the train slowing, stopping and accelerating, slowing everyone else's journey down), divided by the 74 entries/ exists and you get £405 per journey (£810 for a return ticket)?

Well, true, but where do you draw the line ? The headline argument is that the bottom 30% of stations are somehow a drain on resources when clearly this is not the case.
 

tbtc

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Well, true, but where do you draw the line ? The headline argument is that the bottom 30% of stations are somehow a drain on resources when clearly this is not the case.

As a suggestion, if we assume that the trains are free, that the drivers/ guards are free, that the track is free and that the fuel is free, but (assuming a single ticket price of say £5*) the number of passengers aren't enough to cover just the maintenance of the station then its not viable.

Maybe that'd mean 5% of stations rather than 30%, which sounds more realistic.

Make an exception for anywhere a long way from any other public transport if you want (i.e. rural areas where you can make some social case for an infrequent train service). Would be interesting to see what that excludes.

* - I say £5 single because the average ticket price on Northern is something like £2.50, so £5 single sounds like a reasonable cost
 

yorksrob

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As a suggestion, if we assume that the trains are free, that the drivers/ guards are free, that the track is free and that the fuel is free, but (assuming a single ticket price of say £5*) the number of passengers aren't enough to cover just the maintenance of the station then its not viable.

Maybe that'd mean 5% of stations rather than 30%, which sounds more realistic.

Make an exception for anywhere a long way from any other public transport if you want (i.e. rural areas where you can make some social case for an infrequent train service). Would be interesting to see what that excludes.

* - I say £5 single because the average ticket price on Northern is something like £2.50, so £5 single sounds like a reasonable cost

Well, drivers and guards aren't free, but with the exception of some fuel for accelleration and decellaration, most of those costs would still be there regardless of whether these stations are closed or not.

That said if five percent of stations is a more realistic figure, it blows the articles argument, that station closures could make a significant contribution towards overall cost savings on the railway, even further out of the water - certainly not without line closures which would be hugely damaging.
 

6Gman

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I would remind posters that there was a thread (started by yours truly) provocatively entitled "Stations which should close" (or similar).

It was striking that after a few "You mustn't ever, ever, ever close a railway station. Ever. No sir" posters came up with quite a lengthy list!

But a few further comments for this thread:

1. Conservativehome is not an official Conservative Party site and is generally regarded as being a bit of a right-wing rant site.
2. Closing 30% of stations is clearly bonkers!
3. Closing some stations may well make sense where:
a) direct costs exceed income
b) closure would allow other services to be enhanced
4. When it comes to stations with a 'token' service (Denton, Ardwick, Golf Street etc) the answer is surely to choose between a proper service ... or closure.
 

Greenback

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Well, drivers and guards aren't free, but with the exception of some fuel for accelleration and decellaration, most of those costs would still be there regardless of whether these stations are closed or not.

That said if five percent of stations is a more realistic figure, it blows the articles argument, that station closures could make a significant contribution towards overall cost savings on the railway, even further out of the water - certainly not without line closures which would be hugely damaging.

The argument, such as it is, is so ridiculous it shouldn't need to be debunked.
But I'm pleased it has been anyway!

1. Conservativehome is not an official Conservative Party site and is generally regarded as being a bit of a right-wing rant site.

I'd never have guessed!:D

2. Closing 30% of stations is clearly bonkers!

So bonkers there shouldn't even be a thread on it!!

3. Closing some stations may well make sense where:
a) direct costs exceed income
b) closure would allow other services to be enhanced

Possibly, but I think it would depned on circumstances.

4. When it comes to stations with a 'token' service (Denton, Ardwick, Golf Street etc) the answer is surely to choose between a proper service ... or closure.

I would agree, but I would rpefer that a better service was tried first. Even so, I can't see much of a future for Pilning!
 

Pen Mill

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That's great work. I've done a few rough spreadsheet calculations, and if you multiply 760 (representing the 30 % of least used stations) by 30k you get a grand total of £22,800,000 theoretical maintenance cost (I know some of these stations may have more than one platform and others might not have a car park etc but stick with me).

Now, if you add up the total entries and exits for the 760 least used stations (2010-2011 figures) these come to 18,490,650 altogether.

Now divide my theoretical maintenance cost by the total number of entries and exits you get 1.2330556. i.e. each of those entries and exits only need to generate £1.24 to cover total maintenance. £1.24 for a single, £2.50 for a return. Hardly a big drag on the railway economy I think.

Roughly 150% of what it costs to put a franchise bid together <D

EDIT , for one company of 4 not counting the Dft cost that goes into it.
Closing a single one of these stations is laughable.

The trouble with these political capitalists is that they can convince people by headlining !
If for example the average cost of station opening is say 500,000 a year (From St Pancras downwards), this devious b could argue that you would save 760 x £500,000 = £380 million and nobody would be any the wiser !!!
 
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starrymarkb

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There did used to be a shuttle bus. It didn't help very much.

Lack of flights isn't helping either, the airport is only seeing 200k passengers per year (with the Amsterdam route being the busiest with 100k per year.) Even the airport express bus has ceased.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Perhaps the intention would be to create carriages with no seats at all. Cattle trucks?:lol:

Something like this was once suggested by a "wag" for "football specials" in the 1960's when vandalism on these trains was commonplace, as the "supporters" would be so obsessed with keeping their balance they would not have time to create havoc.....let alone throwing light bulbs and whatever else they could lay their hands on out of the window spaces.
 
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