First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[tbtc]

Bob Crow, leader of the RMT transport union, said: "The shambolic handling of the West Coast franchise has not only left 800 of our members' jobs hanging by a thread

Bob Crow has managed to ignore First's answer on employment levels when they stated they would be broadly flat.:roll:

Yeah, strange how he's gone from "FIrst will cut eight hundred jobs and slash catering" to "800 jobs are hanging by a thread"... no, they're not Bob.

The winning bidder promised to maintain employment levels whilst introducing additional trains, running new services to new destinations and paying more premium to the Government - the only way any jobs are "hanging by a thread" would be if the Government were cowardly enough to delay the signing of the document (in which case those on fixed term contracts would be in an awkward position).

Really though, yet more scaremongering from Crow - doesn't matter how pathetic he sounds as long as he gets his name in the papers...

 

[SkinnyDave]

Renationalisation would mean the railway debt (which is quite substantial) would end up on the public sector balance sheet. The privatisation laws prohibits UK government or government bodies bidding to run franchises, although obviously doesn't exclude those of other countries

The latter part regarding laws in my mind is bonkers

 

[WinterChief]

I have actually trawled through this 110 odd page thread and have been watching it beady eyed!

I find First's bid a little optimistic. For example paying some £700mil in the last year of the franchise, yet the highest premium payer at the moment is the SWT franchise with £228mil. I know growth is expected but I am struggling to comprehend at that rate over 13 years. Does anyone else have any speculation over this?

I need a little bit of an explanation here. First say they will get more trains, but is this because they are introducing more services and as part of the agreement the DfT, will the DfT provide more trains? Did other bidders submit a spec for more trains? Is the purchase of the new trains authorised by the Dft or what? What made that so appealing yet surely it will cost more money?

Employment levels - Broadly flat (for 5 years), this is the usual talk and I believe long term they will try to reduce staff as any company would want to reduce outgoings. They will be introducing barriers which will surely mean a cut in staff as tickets are checked manually at the moment?

(This is the bit with my opinion!) My personal experience and judgement (I only travel up on pleasure and by 1st class) is that with Virgin the travelling experience was far greater than FGW's and FTPE's, etc. The meals, the decor inside of the trains, even the free stuff was better quality, etc. It is my opinion that I think First will remove as much of this as possible and just "transport people" they'll do it, but it will just be a journey, it will be nothing special - it'll get you there but it won't be anything to write home about. Virgin did it with a bit more "Holiday" style for me, and that's purely the reason I like them. As I say I don't commute or regularly travel with them (only about 2 times a year).

I think it is unlikely the bid will go back, but hopefully an investigation will reveal some interesting facts!

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure all the bids will be made available, but at the moment nothing has been signed so presumably there's some confidentiality in place.

All the bid (financial details) have never been made available before, and for winning bids the actual detailed figures are always redacted from the published franchise agreement anyway. I posted the other day that DfT had replied to me in an email that the GA franchise was not online because it was still being redacted.

 

[Realfish]

Well so far, Virgin have refused to release any details of this 'more deliverable' bid.

As, technically, the franchise process has not concluded, Virgin are not permitted to do so at this time, and it remains to be seen whether Virgin will elongate the process and seek a review.

I read in the DT that DfT are thwarting VT's requests for further clarification, clarification that might help construct their case for the JR. If VT are simply fishing, DfT are right to refuse, if though VT's requests are fair and reasonable, that in itself may provide the grounds and put DfT in a difficult position.

One possible issue about the signing date is the 10 day deadline to seek a review. In the past this has usually meant 10 'working days', DfT though have said that applications should be made in 10 'calendar days... as defined by the EU Procurement Directive'. The Directive, though is silent on this, simply stating 'a minimum of 10 days'. VT might argue that DfT's interpretation is unreasonable, given that a Bank Holiday falls within the standstill period, if this is so, by my reckoning, VT have until cop Wednesday to state their case and the agreements cannot be signed before then. (an echo of the confusion that enused over the Abu Hamza deportation appeal).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Think all bids should go on the table now. By DfT. That would give their decision justifiable credibility. Why can't they be made to show them under the law that can make such info be put in public domain?

Because DfT and the bidders don't want the details made public, and have signed confidentiality agreements to that effect.
DfT is only obliged to publish (eventually) the franchise agreement with the winner.
Even that will have big redactions for commercial reasons.
We might get the scores for the bidders, and the premiums, but nothing else.

 

[tbtc]

All the bid (financial details) have never been made available before, and for winning bids the actual detailed figures are always redacted from the published franchise agreement anyway. I posted the other day that DfT had replied to me in an email that the GA franchise was not online because it was still being redacted.

Does Freedom Of Information not apply to these bids?

 

[Masboroughlad]

Think all bids should go on the table now. By DfT. That would give their decision justifiable credibility. Why can't they be made to show them under the law that can make such info be put in public domain?

Because DfT and the bidders don't want the details made public, and have signed confidentiality agreements to that effect.
DfT is only obliged to publish (eventually) the franchise agreement with the winner.
Even that will have big redactions for commercial reasons.
We might get the scores for the bidders, and the premiums, but nothing else.

Still don't understand why some political info can be forced to public domain but rail bids cannot. Particularlyonce awarded. Too secretive for my liking. Whether or not DfT have anything to hide, it certainly makes it look that way!

 

[swt_passenger]

Does Freedom Of Information not apply to these bids?

Not fully, bcause the TOCs are not subject to FOI. But because DfT is subject, they do publish the agreements, but only after allowing the franchisee to redact all the commercially valuable information.

It's worth looking up a typical agreement on DfT's website, you'll normally see large sections of empty paragraphs, with just a para number and a footnote explaining that sensitive info has been removed.

 

[rail-britain]

Does Freedom Of Information not apply to these bids?

Yes, and such information can be removed
I have made several FOI requests and in many cases there are big black lines where the useful information obviously was (commercially sensitive)

Oddly Richard Branson advised he would publish details of what the Virgin Rail Group bid was (in terms of service and basic financial details), however this never occured
I contacted Virgin Rail Group and they confirmed this had not been possible in the timescale which Richard Branson had hoped, but would be available at a later date directly from them (suggesting once their franchise ends)

I have noted a formal response from the DfT, that they have received several (no number actually released, but suggests at least five) requests from Virgin Rail Group to delay the signing of the new franchise, but have not seen "reasonable grounds" for doing so (as at Friday 24 August)
However if they did receive such a request before 10:00 on Tuesday 28 August they would consider it
They have also discussed the matter with other government departments (whatever that means) and have confirmed they will not be making any such requests

Therefore, that leaves just one avenue for Virgin Rail Group, if they want to make a final action for reversing the decision

 

[bnm]

Not fully, bcause the TOCs are not subject to FOI. But because DfT is subject, they do publish the agreements, but only after allowing the franchisee to redact all the commercially valuable information.

It's worth looking up a typical agreement on DfT's website, you'll normally see large sections of empty paragraphs, with just a para number and a footnote explaining that sensitive info has been removed.

The franchise agreements are published, redacted of commercially sensitive information.

The individual bids, being made by private companies, are not subject to Freedom of Information. Once received by the DfT (a public body) they could theoretically be released under an FoI request, but any bidder worth its salt will have ensured that a confidentiality clause is included with their bid as allowed for by the Freedom if Information Act 2000, section 41. Also the whole bid can be regarded as commercially sensitive and thus exempt under section 43(2) of the Act.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Still don't understand why some political info can be forced to public domain but rail bids cannot. Particularlyonce awarded. Too secretive for my liking. Whether or not DfT have anything to hide, it certainly makes it look that way!

What is it you want to know?
The process being used is fully transparent and documented in gory detail in the ITT.
DfT are following it to the letter as far as I can see.
The bids themselves will contain things like costings from Alstom for new trains, NR costs for station upgrades, staffing details, management costs etc etc.
You are certainly not going to get these.
Eventually all this is distilled into scores for the bidders, along with the premium profiles.
We might possibly get those.
No Minister is going to want to discuss the fine detail of bids in public, and the much-anticipated confrontation in Parliament will be a damp squib.

 

[davido39]

Good question - is Brian Souter happy for Stagecoach to work for "free" here?

Just what I was thinking, the almighty Brian does not do anything for free. Anyway he is stepping down so he's gonna need as much spending money as he can get!

Something else is bothering me. What is all this Branson hatred for? To be honest he has brought a bit of flair into a system that is still stuck in the Victorian era, there is nothing wrong with having a bit of fun, personally I do think this is why passenger numbers are up, all the lets not take ourselves to seriously adverts have been a breath of fresh air!

In this climate we are in when everything is doom and gloom I think it's a good thing.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Yeah, strange how he's gone from "FIrst will cut eight hundred jobs and slash catering" to "800 jobs are hanging by a thread"... no, they're not Bob.

The winning bidder promised to maintain employment levels whilst introducing additional trains, running new services to new destinations and paying more premium to the Government - the only way any jobs are "hanging by a thread" would be if the Government were cowardly enough to delay the signing of the document (in which case those on fixed term contracts would be in an awkward position).

Really though, yet more scaremongering from Crow - doesn't matter how pathetic he sounds as long as he gets his name in the papers...

I take that to mean he's referring to people on temporary contracts and staff employed by virgins suppliers who presumably have a contract only as far as the end of the current franchise, so he does make a valid point, whilst staff on permanent contracts will be transferred these other workers won't and are left in limbo

 

[David10]

I find First's bid a little optimistic. For example paying some £700mil in the last year of the franchise, yet the highest premium payer at the moment is the SWT franchise with £228mil. I know growth is expected but I am struggling to comprehend at that rate over 13 years. Does anyone else have any speculation over this?

The general consensus regardless of whether people support First's bid or not is that it will be a big ask to generate the revenue to pay the premium in the last years.

I need a little bit of an explanation here. First say they will get more trains, but is this because they are introducing more services and as part of the agreement the DfT, will the DfT provide more trains? Did other bidders submit a spec for more trains? Is the purchase of the new trains authorised by the Dft or what? What made that so appealing yet surely it will cost more money?

The trains will be purchased by a ROSCO and leased to First. First's business case will be that the new trains will generate enough extra revenue to cover their cost. I believe Virgin proposed replacing the Voyagers.

Employment levels - Broadly flat (for 5 years), this is the usual talk and I believe long term they will try to reduce staff as any company would want to reduce outgoings. They will be introducing barriers which will surely mean a cut in staff as tickets are checked manually at the moment?

I would expect First to review staffing levels across the board and make adjustments as they see fit, that is standard business practice. Tickets will still be checked on board and apart from Euston most stations don't have barrier checks. If anything barriers may require increased staffing levels as the despatch staff can't do both roles at once.

My personal experience and judgement (I only travel up on pleasure and by 1st class) is that with Virgin the travelling experience was far greater than FGW's and FTPE's, etc.

In fairness VT have a near new fleet, FGW a refurbished 1970s fleet and FTPE is not an InterCity operator. Undoubtedly you get more from 1st class on VT, but First have indicated they intend to maintain the standard. And Virgin have been big at making a lot of noise about their initiatives, First by comparison go about their business more quietly as witnessed in the last 2 weeks.

 

[jon0844]

The tendering process is not good enough. All those pages of facts and figures. Sod that. Put it out to a public vote by letting each company show its logo and say on 10 words or less why it should win. Existing companies get extra points if the public like the brand or the boss.

Virgin Trains; because it has electrolytes...

 

[swt_passenger]

I have noted a formal response from the DfT, that they have received several (no number actually released, but suggests at least five) requests from Virgin Rail Group to delay the signing of the new franchise, but have not seen "reasonable grounds" for doing so (as at Friday 24 August)

Have you a link? This is not on the DfT website.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Yeah, strange how he's gone from "FIrst will cut eight hundred jobs and slash catering" to "800 jobs are hanging by a thread"... no, they're not Bob.

The winning bidder promised to maintain employment levels whilst introducing additional trains, running new services to new destinations and paying more premium to the Government - the only way any jobs are "hanging by a thread" would be if the Government were cowardly enough to delay the signing of the document (in which case those on fixed term contracts would be in an awkward position).

Really though, yet more scaremongering from Crow - doesn't matter how pathetic he sounds as long as he gets his name in the papers...

I take that to mean he's referring to people on temporary contracts and staff employed by virgins suppliers who presumably have a contract only as far as the end of the current franchise, so he does make a valid point, whilst staff on permanent contracts get transferred these other workers won't and are left in limbo

 

[David10]

What is all this Branson hatred for?

Well he is a bit like Marmite you either like him or you don't. Some people admire him as the plucky underdog who took on BA and buy into all his self promotion, while others don't like him for much the same reason. I was really here-nor-there with him until the recent strop has put me in the against camp.

As has been said before, if he feels he has a genuine case he can call for a judicial review which will stop the DfT from signing a contract with First. All this trying to do it through the back door with petitions, select committees etc indicates his case isn't that strong and he knows it. He is at the stage where he needs to put up or shut up.

 

[davido39]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-19266545

Just noticed this on the BBC News website.

I love the question at the bottom.

What next for First?

bankruptcy!

 

[Metroland]

What is it you want to know?
The process being used is fully transparent and documented in gory detail in the ITT.
DfT are following it to the letter as far as I can see.
The bids themselves will contain things like costings from Alstom for new trains, NR costs for station upgrades, staffing details, management costs etc etc.
You are certainly not going to get these.
Eventually all this is distilled into scores for the bidders, along with the premium profiles.
We might possibly get those.
No Minister is going to want to discuss the fine detail of bids in public, and the much-anticipated confrontation in Parliament will be a damp squib.

The irony is, if this was British Rail we could find out exactly what they are up to!

Great system this, using more of OUR money (in general), all done in secret and we don't know what any of the bids contains or how what the effect on services in terms of passenger experience is going to be: Such as the cost of unregulated fares etc.

The advantage of privatisation is what exactly? Private companies running up more debt, putting up fares, and a system where the Government can say 'not out fault', even though they are pulling the strings?

 

[tbtc]

I take that to mean he's referring to people on temporary contracts and staff employed by virgins suppliers who presumably have a contract only as far as the end of the current franchise, so he does make a valid point, whilst staff on permanent contracts these other workers won't and are left in limbo

These staff would have been in limbo regardless of who "won" the franchise (there was no guarantee that Virgin were going to employ them all post December) - I've worked on three/six month contracts in the past and I appreciate that its unsettling.

But, as I say, this would be the same regardless of who won, and I don't like the way that Crow is trying to confuse two things. If he were that keen on ensuring that their employment situation is resolved then surely he'd want First to be awarded the bid as soon as possible so that they can start sorting longer term contracts out? (but that would mean admitting he was wrong with his scaremongering figures a couple of weeks ago)

Not fully, bcause the TOCs are not subject to FOI. But because DfT is subject, they do publish the agreements, but only after allowing the franchisee to redact all the commercially valuable information.

It's worth looking up a typical agreement on DfT's website, you'll normally see large sections of empty paragraphs, with just a para number and a footnote explaining that sensitive info has been removed.

Thanks for the information

The tendering process is not good enough. All those pages of facts and figures. Sod that. Put it out to a public vote by letting each company show its logo and say on 10 words or less why it should win. Existing companies get extra points if the public like the brand or the boss.

Virgin Trains; because it has electrolytes...

I'm sure Simon Cowell is trying to work out a way of turning this into television - imagine if those 100,000 Virgin supporters could be encouraged to phone a premium rate number... megaprofits!

 

[E16 Cyclist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-19266545

Just noticed this on the BBC News website.

I love the question at the bottom.

What next for First?

bankruptcy!

Sorry did we read the same article

 

[Masboroughlad]

The UK rail passenger franchise system is a complicated mess! It needs radical overhaul. This farcical situation is a symptom of a much bigger problem.

 

[island]

FFS this is getting ridiculous. If Branson et al wanted to run the WCML, then why did they sit on their backsides and not make a higher bid, as per the process in place? :roll:

Does he think that by throwing a tantrum in this way, he'll somehow get the WCML back and carry on in the same old way?

Well, that would defeat his logic which is that a higher bid would have been undeliverable/bankrupt the company/etc.

The latter part regarding laws in my mind is bonkers

Agreed!

 

[davido39]

Sorry did we read the same article

Sorry Bankruptcy being my answer not the reports. Should have made that more clear.

 

[F Great Eastern]

For all the people who say the tendering process is flawed, I presume this is the same tendering process that has not achieved anywhere near such criticism in past franchise awards? Also if you strongly believe that further details should be put out there by the DFT, why were you not calling for the same when other tenders went out?

We see this situation happen once, and suddenly the whole tendering system is to blame, ignoring the fact that the many other times where such situation has not occurred. It's like saying a player takes 20 penalties in football, scores 19, and misses one, therefore he must be crap as we forget the 19 he scored and just focused on the one he missed because it happens to be what we deem as the most crucial one.

 

[Geezertronic]

For all the people who say the tendering process is flawed, I presume this is the same tendering process that has not achieved anywhere near such criticism in past franchise awards? Also if you strongly believe that further details should be put out there by the DFT, why were you not calling for the same when other tenders went out?

We see this situation happen once, and suddenly the whole tendering system is to blame, ignoring the fact that the many other times where such situation has not occurred. It's like saying a player takes 20 penalties in football, scores 19, and misses one, therefore he must be crap as we forget the 19 he scored and just focused on the one he missed because it happens to be what we deem as the most crucial one.

If the two ECML fiascos are anything to go by, I see no reason why there cannot be the clarity and transparency people seem to want. Who wants to see a repeat of that on the WCML?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I find it hilarious and pathetic that people are trying to now claim the process is flawed just because First won.
If Virgin had bid more, and so had won the franchise, then we would not be having this discussion.
Its all sour grapes starting by Virgin, nothing else.

Now, I am not saying the process isn't flawed. In whole honesty I don't know enough about it to make a judgement. But neither do the thousands of people who have jumped on the bandwagon about it.

 

[jon0844]

But even Virgin bid more and it could go wrong for them too. Nobody can tell but most franchises seem to work, including all others run by First.

I used to be Richard Branson's number one fan (perhaps given my first job was for Virgin) and always supported him as the underdog taking on the big boys stuck in their ways and putting the customers first. But now he's the big boy and just as bad as the people he once stood up to. Just like Apple has transformed into something evil in much the same way.