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Class 156 lifespan

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Mikey1984

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Hello,
I was just wondering about the class 156's and how long they will remain in service.
In particular I am thinking of the ones in use by Scotrail. They still seam solid and reliable but are looking rather tired inside.
I am interested if anyone know when they are expected to serve to and what might replace them when the time comes.
Cheers Michael
 
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Masboroughlad

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Hello,
I was just wondering about the class 156's and how long they will remain in service.
In particular I am thinking of the ones in use by Scotrail. They still seam solid and reliable but are looking rather tired inside.
I am interested if anyone know when they are expected to serve to and what might replace them when the time comes.
Cheers Michael

How old are the 156s? They have had some hammer!

Do they still do long distance runs? I used to work for Rightline caterers in the late 80s and 156s were used on long distance NW-Anglia services.

Which TOCs still use them? Scotrail? Northern? East Midlands Trains? Is that it? Do London Midland use them?
 

trentside

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No, London Midland have never operated Class 156s to my knowledge.

That's correct - the remaining ex-Central units passed to East Midlands Trains and were never operated by London Midland. Central had already transferred a number of 156s to One/NXEA, and I think there were also plans to transfer a number of units to Scotrail in exchange for 158s but this never took place (though one unit did gain a base Scotrail livery).
 

fgwrich

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That's correct - the remaining ex-Central units passed to East Midlands Trains and were never operated by London Midland. Central had already transferred a number of 156s to One/NXEA, and I think there were also plans to transfer a number of units to Scotrail in exchange for 158s but this never took place (though one unit did gain a base Scotrail livery).

Along with the ex Anglian 150s moving over to Central (Now with ATW).
 

route:oxford

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Hello,
I was just wondering about the class 156's and how long they will remain in service.
In particular I am thinking of the ones in use by Scotrail. They still seam solid and reliable but are looking rather tired inside.
I am interested if anyone know when they are expected to serve to and what might replace them when the time comes.
Cheers Michael

Whatever comes along, it'll probably be designed around the needs of Scotrail for the West Highland, Kyle and Far North lines.

So probably 3 coach, all standard accommodation, through-set corridor connection, DDA compliant loos, capable of fitting mini snow-ploughs/deflectors.

Plenty of space for luggage and bicycles as wells as SDO for the mini-platforms around the highlands.

Perhaps Transport Scotland would fund additional coaches with micro-buffets for use in peak tourist season?

Could the WHL cope with 7 coach services as far as Crianlarich? 4 Coaches progressing to Fort Bill & Mallaig with 3 coaches to Oban.
 

tbtc

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The 156s are one of the best classes of train in my opinion - under-appreciated units.

However I can't see ScotRail getting anything specifically designed for the WHL/ Far North - that'd be a tiny class. Any replacement would be part of a bigger order for the rest of the UK.
 

route:oxford

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The 156s are one of the best classes of train in my opinion - under-appreciated units.

However I can't see ScotRail getting anything specifically designed for the WHL/ Far North - that'd be a tiny class. Any replacement would be part of a bigger order for the rest of the UK.

True

But you can design for the specific needs of one, that just so happen to also be suitable for the rest of the UK.

By the time these units need replacement, the UK may well be disolved anyway...
 

laird

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For the West Highland Line I believe the limit is 6 coach sets.
Early on it was attempted to make sets of 3 coach 156s split at Crianlarich but it was found the uncouple function was unreliable so it became sets of 4 and 2.

In the summer peak it has been practice to run the Oban and Mallaig morning services as separate 4 coach services reducing the impact of overcrowding.

IMO What is missing the 1640 Queen Street to Oban/Mallaig which used to alleviate the overcrowding on the 156s running on the line when they first took over the service.
 

tbtc

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True

But you can design for the specific needs of one, that just so happen to also be suitable for the rest of the UK.

By the time these units need replacement, the UK may well be disolved anyway...

Regardless of the political state of the country in a decade's time the unit requirements for the West Highland and Far North would be uneconomical as a stand alone build.

There are plenty of other unelectrified lines in the UK which combine "long" distance passengers (journeys of a couple of hours) with slower speeds - many ATW routes, the Settle & Carlisle, Calder Valley, Whitby, Lincolnshire, Bristol - Weymouth etc etc. A 156 replacement would be big enough to serve all of these.
 

pemma

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I am interested if anyone know when they are expected to serve to and what might replace them when the time comes.

A diesel train is generally seen as being able to run for 30 years, possibly longer with refurbishment and life extension work.

A while back someone posted a link to a pdf where the viability of life extension work various rolling stock was looked at and I seem to recall life extension work for 156s and 158s was seen as a viable option.

Trains that are expected to last beyond 2019 are likely get a DDA complaint refurbishment before the end of 2019, should the train not already be complaint.

With additional electrification work planned in Scotland, the Scotrail ones may be an internal cascade of 158s or 170s and the 156s moving to England/Wales but then again they might stay where they are with other units moving to England/Wales.
 

tbtc

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IMO What is missing the 1640 Queen Street to Oban/Mallaig which used to alleviate the overcrowding on the 156s running on the line when they first took over the service.

With the 156s spared on Paisley Canal duties is there any scope for a 16:40 to run at least as far as Crianlarich? Would take a bit of pressure off for the longer distance passengers.
 

pemma

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And the last ones in 1989, so without going to the pedantic lengths of listing the delivery dates of each individual unit, it balances out at 1988 ;)

That's assuming they were built at a steady rate.

It'll probably be the oldest units that affect when the class starts to get withdrawn. When Northern picked the worst 142s to put in to storage 142001 was selected and none of the later builds that ATN had were selected.
 

tbtc

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With additional electrification work planned in Scotland, the Scotrail ones may be an internal cascade of 158s or 170s and the 156s moving to England/Wales but then again they might stay where they are with other units moving to England/Wales.

Whilst some 156s will be directly replaced by central belt electrification, 158s are unsuitable for many of the remaining 156 routes (due to the door width) - hence no 158s on the West Highland or the Glasgow South Western route. 156s would be fine on the Far North line too, so if anything heads down south I'd put money on it being the 158s, not 156s.
 

Class83

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The northern 156's are incredibly loud when accelerating and some of the internal fittings are quite possibly original. While new seats/carpets would be nice, I'm not sure that it would be cost effective to do much more refurbing compared to a new build order for 2018.

Once the Scotrail electrification is done I'd imagine that the 170s will be used to strengthen the non-electrified routes, as the 158s seem to be limited to certain routes it would make sense to send them south and keep 156s for Far North/West Highland/SouthWest routes, but I think there may be pressure to keep the 158s for the Far North line, what modifications would be required to run these on the other lines?
 

tbtc

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I think there may be pressure to keep the 158s for the Far North line, what modifications would be required to run these on the other lines?

I think it's to do with the way that 158 doors open (insufficient clearance on platforms) - IIRC there are platforms at other stations (on lines which 158s *do* run) that 158s aren't allowed to use (Aberdeen?)
 

Hairy Bear

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158's have guage clearence problems through certain plarforms due to the lateral damper and mountings on the bogies.
 

route:oxford

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Regardless of the political state of the country in a decade's time the unit requirements for the West Highland and Far North would be uneconomical as a stand alone build.

I'm not so sure. Stadler Rail manage to supply small scale builds to operators all round the world.

How many sets would you need to cover the diagrams out of Inverness (say use the same units to cover Wick/Thurso/Dingwall, Kyle and Aberdeen) and the Oban & Fort William/Mallaig?

I'd guess, 10 for Inverness and 8 for the WHL. Make those 4 car units for Aberdeen, and 3 car units for the WHL - that's 64 coaches. Add on an extra 4 car unit to allow for mishaps on rural routes and maintenance. That 68 coaches. Just a couple of coaches smaller than the Class 180 order.
 

507 001

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Yes and many people consider the 180 order to be far too small.

Would there be a considerable cost saving over buying a new unit by fitting new interiors and new engines? Would you need to replace the gearboxes and final drives too or could these be retained to save money?
 

route:oxford

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Yes and many people consider the 180 order to be far too small.

That is true. But at least there is evidence that it isn't impossible.

If the 180 had the robust availability and reliability ex-works that the 22X series had, perhaps there would have been more of them.
 

bronzeonion

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One of the main things about the 156 that makes it lack appeal is the lack of air conditioning. Maybe a Chiltern style 165 aircon fit would be a good feature to implement as part of a refurbishment?
 

Mikey1984

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The one I was on yesterday was very noisy,; which I enjoy but probably not to every ones taste. In open BVE though it is very quiet in the cab. Is it like this in real life?
 

Yew

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The one I was on yesterday was very noisy,; which I enjoy but probably not to every ones taste. In open BVE though it is very quiet in the cab. Is it like this in real life?

The engines are situated close to the middle of the formation, if you sit on the outside edges they are fairly quiet, even more so on the outside vestibules near the cab
 

Bevan Price

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Although not currently cleared for these lines (as far as I know), would Class 170 be capable of operating on the West Highland and Far North lines ?
 

sprinterguy

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That's assuming they were built at a steady rate.

It'll probably be the oldest units that affect when the class starts to get withdrawn. When Northern picked the worst 142s to put in to storage 142001 was selected and none of the later builds that ATN had were selected.
That's not really accurate at all as several later build, second batch 142s were put into store by Northern during the period after the Oldham loop closure, including 142062/63/64/67/68/70.

Additionally, your theory that the oldest 156s would be withdrawn first would only stand any chance of being likely if all the 156s were with a single operator. The future of the 156s will be determined by the fleet replacement policies of the various TOCs that operate them. Even if the units were all with a single operator, I view it as less likely that units for withdrawal would be based solely on an arbitrary concept of age, and far more probable that they would be chosen on the basis of mileage since their last major overhaul which is likely to be the greater determining factor in the condition of the trains.
 

tbtc

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Yes and many people consider the 180 order to be far too small.

Would there be a considerable cost saving over buying a new unit by fitting new interiors and new engines? Would you need to replace the gearboxes and final drives too or could these be retained to save money?

That is true. But at least there is evidence that it isn't impossible

A tiny build of stock isn't impossible, just horribly expensive (per coach) due to the lack of economies of scale. For example, the R&D costs are pretty much the same whether you are building one DMU or a hundred.

It worries me that the Scottish Parliament will be more concerned about doing their own thing than building an efficient train, but that's maybe another argument!
 
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