Difficult routes (train services) to totally electrify ... and possible solutions.

[The Ham]

I was thinking about how to remove the class 159's (DMU's) from having to run into London Waterloo as they currently run from Basingstoke to Waterloo over 3rd rail. As if you could that would free up a lot of DMU's to be able to be cascaded elsewhere.

The two simple options would be electrify the route all the way to Exeter (probably not very cost effective given that only 1 train an hour makes it that far) or to split the journey (which would not go down well with passengers).

Given the grade clearance works proposed for Southampton to Basingstoke via Salisbury as a freight diversion route, the electrification to Salisbury could be fairly "cheap" (i.e. no structures to alter). However even split the journey there (with a walk across the island platform) wouldn't be overly favourable. As only about 1/3 of the services currently terminate at Salisbury.

If you were to go down the line of part electrifying and still having a split I would suggest doing so at Yeovil Junction (1/2 the services terminate at or before here). As this more than halves the number of bridges that the electrification has to pass under compared to going all the way to Exeter from Salisbury as well as missing out 5 of the 6 tunnels.

It also has a island platform for a simple change, but the DMU service could have Yeovil Junction as a stop on route from Westbury to Exeter making it a have more of a use than just an continuation of a service.

Are there any other examples where there are routes which currently use a DMU stock but with some intelligently done electrification could free up a whole load of stock? Either where you can think of a solution or where you can not.

 

[Kali]

Would go down like a lead balloon to those of us between Yeovil and Exeter :P not checked the timetable but there used to be some services that started west of Yeovil ( Axminster, Honiton ) and went to Exeter, so maybe not so simple as "1tph" - which is not to say FGW couldn't take those over, although I'd really rather they didn't.

And, well, where's the electric stock going to come from? if you have to new-build it then maybe the new stock would be better served in a complete package upgrade somewhere else. Or, alternatively, some hybrid D/EMU concocted or even just buy a handful of locomotives to do the Yeovil-Exeter part, if you can find some with low enough track force.

 

[Buttsy]

Is there a way of making DMUs have hotel power & driving ability from an EMU (power source) so you could 'couple' up and take off the EMU at Salisbury, say, and the DMU fire up and continue to Exeter?

 

[The Ham]

Would go down like a lead balloon to those of us between Yeovil and Exeter :P not checked the timetable but there used to be some services that started west of Yeovil ( Axminster, Honiton ) and went to Exeter, so maybe not so simple as "1tph" - which is not to say FGW couldn't take those over, although I'd really rather they didn't.

Short of what happens at the moment (which requires a lot of DUM's running over electrified lines for quite a bit) or electrifying the whole line (which is likely to be very costly), I was trying to come up with an option which wasn't too horrendous to the existing passengers.

Any change is likely to cause some problems to existing travellers and hopefully if such a change were to happen it would be done with a lot of consultation with these passengers in mind. There are however likely to be some winners with such a service, such as those travelling from Yeovil Pen Mill. Also depending on the timings there maybe opportunity to travel to Westbury and change there for services to destinations which are currently difficult to get to.

I would also expect any services west of Yeovil towards Exeter would not be impacted and would carry on as before.

And, well, where's the electric stock going to come from? if you have to new-build it then maybe the new stock would be better served in a complete package upgrade somewhere else. Or, alternatively, some hybrid D/EMU concocted or even just buy a handful of locomotives to do the Yeovil-Exeter part, if you can find some with low enough track force.

I would have thought that it would have been a new order of trains, probably a new batch of class 444's to increase the number of them SWT's has; possibly with a large enough order to allow them to strengthen existing services as well. Two of them would give 82 more standard class seats but 2 less first class seats (net increase of 80 seats) compared with 3 class 159's (which currently run the service to Salisbury).

As I said it is likely that with better acceleration the short change time at Yeovil would hopefully be made up by the time the train reached Salisbury and therefore may be quicker by the time the train reached Woking (I was assuming that due to path constants there would be little advantage beyond there, other than maybe being able to make up lost time a little faster).

The problem with D/EMU's is that unless there are enough other routes which would benefit from running off the wires whilst being able to run on 3rd rail and overhead cables they would be fairly expensive for such a niche design and therefore it would be better to carry on using DMU's for the service.

 

[Kali]

Is there a way of making DMUs have hotel power & driving ability from an EMU (power source) so you could 'couple' up and take off the EMU at Salisbury, say, and the DMU fire up and continue to Exeter?

I think the old DEMUs were compatible with the old Mk1 EMUs for driving, no idea about heating. That is obviously too sensible for modern times... However someone should know if say, a 185 is at all compatible with a 444 electrically/software wise. The issue with that and a multimode unit is you're dragging tons of engine around which you're not using, so the obvious answer is to take the engines off & stick them in a seperate box.

You'd only need 3-4 or something for this particular route but given the spread of electrification & the fact you can't electrify everywhere at once, tractoring EMUs around off-wire elsewhere too looks a little more attractive providing the distances aren't vast, then it gets a bit daft to be towing all that electrical gear around.

Yeovil has good technical reasons to swap trains, but a local straw poll ( a couple of neighbours ) is giving a resounding thumbs down atm!

 

[Trainfan344]

Lowestoft to ipswich is difficult (1 Swingbridge) So is Lowestoft to Norwich (2 Swingbridges)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Norwich to Birmingham would free up a lot of DMUs

 

[Xavi]

Once contractors have had a bit of practice at stringing up the wires in CP5, the benefits of electrification will become more obvious than ever. Even government seems to have realised, after 40+ years, that national infrastructure investment (railway or other) is a rather good way of spending tax receipts. You could even call it job creation.

The likes of Exeter to Basingstoke will pass the test. Half hourly east of Salisbury and Yeovil in the peaks, plus west of Axminster through the day (key part of growth plan for Exeter and East Devon) servicing the new town of Cranbrook, is hardly light use. You might even see half hourly throughout with doubling from east of Axminster to Yeovil.

It's win win with a large fleet of 158/9 free to indirectly help Pacer replacement.

 

[Aictos]

Lowestoft to ipswich is difficult (1 Swingbridge) So is Lowestoft to Norwich (2 Swingbridges)

Not really, indeed Trowse swing bridge allows electric services to use it - it's the only bridge of its type in the UK so just because a swing bridge is involved doesn't mean electrification cannot be done.

For example, there's a swing bridge at Selby in Yorkshire which could easily see work done to it to allow electric services to use it.

 

[Kali]

Come to think of it, given Exeter-Salisbury was built as double track it might not be so expensive to wire up as it is now. It might be worth clearing west from Axminster with an eye to redoubling anyway though ( which includes a tunnel, so not terribly cheap ).

Exeter itself is at capacity for road traffic, there's a definite need for mode shift.

 

[The Ham]

Once contractors have had a bit of practice at stringing up the wires in CP5, the benefits of electrification will become more obvious than ever. Even government seems to have realised, after 40+ years, that national infrastructure investment (railway or other) is a rather good way of spending tax receipts. You could even call it job creation.

The likes of Exeter to Basingstoke will pass the test. Half hourly east of Salisbury and Yeovil in the peaks, plus west of Axminster through the day (key part of growth plan for Exeter and East Devon) servicing the new town of Cranbrook, is hardly light use. You might even see half hourly throughout with doubling from east of Axminster to Yeovil.

It's win win with a large fleet of 158/9 free to indirectly help Pacer replacement.

Maybe, but with CP5 doing 900 route miles of electrification CP6 could see a similar number of miles. However there could well be other routes (the gaps in the XC network, the GW line to Exeter, etc) which may be of higher priority and so there may not be enough resources to do the whole length of Basingstoke to Exeter.

 

[Chris125]

I think the old DEMUs were compatible with the old Mk1 EMUs for driving, no idea about heating.

If i remember correctly they weren't though it was technically possible, i think one was modified as a trial. Regarding ETH, this was only fitted to the REP's and the unpowered TC's.

Regarding electrification, interestingly it was hinted at again during the latest Transport Select Committee that the electrification announced isn't necessarily the limit for CP5 - there are funding pots still available but its up to the industry to make the case for how they're used.

Chris

 

[HSTEd]

As someone has referenced problems with breaking the Waterloo-Exeter service up, can I ask a question about this service?

Historically there was the well known 4REP/Class 33 hauled service to Weymouth to enable the portion on electrified routes to be electrically operated.

Why was this never attempted with the service to Exeter? As far as I can tell the service remained diesel hauled throughout, eventually ending up with 50s rejected from the WCML.

 

[The Ham]

As someone has referenced problems with breaking the Waterloo-Exeter service up, can I ask a question about this service?

Historically there was the well known 4REP/Class 33 hauled service to Weymouth to enable the portion on electrified routes to be electrically operated.

Why was this never attempted with the service to Exeter? As far as I can tell the service remained diesel hauled throughout, eventually ending up with 50s rejected from the WCML.

Probably because the distance between Basingstoke & Exeter is 3 times that of distance between Bournemouth and Weymouth (which is also fairly flat).

 

[tbtc]

I've seen it said that GOBLIN would be a very hard line to electrify, due to bridges/ tunnels etc - which is frustrating as it seems a fairly "quick win".

Would it help to look for flatter routes like Ely - Norwich as places that are simpler to electrify?

 

[TDK]

Chester to Crewe - solution alter 0ver 60 bridges

 

[Kali]

As someone has referenced problems with breaking the Waterloo-Exeter service up, can I ask a question about this service?

Historically there was the well known 4REP/Class 33 hauled service to Weymouth to enable the portion on electrified routes to be electrically operated.

Why was this never attempted with the service to Exeter? As far as I can tell the service remained diesel hauled throughout, eventually ending up with 50s rejected from the WCML.

Not only the distance, but why would you split a long distance service to the Westcountry at Basingstoke? the other way would be to haul an EMU all the way complete with electrical gear. Hauling it from Yeovil would be a different matter.

The London-Salisbury-Exeter route was one of the first to use diesels all the way back in the early 50s, believe it or not. HSTs replaced the 50s on WR Westcountry services in the early 80s, so quite a few got shunted to the old SR route to replace 33s. Pity they didn't take the aircon Mk2s too.

 

[pemma]

Chester to Crewe - solution alter 0ver 60 bridges

Haven't seen that come in all the pro-Chester to Crewe electrification threads.

Helsby-Ellesmere Port apparently has problems with potential 3rd rail electrification due to the works in the area. However, OHE would mean dual powered trains would be needed for just a short section of overheads.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've seen it said that GOBLIN would be a very hard line to electrify, due to bridges/ tunnels etc - which is frustrating as it seems a fairly "quick win".

That might explain the small DMU order then.

Is there any reason why the Southern 171 routes haven't come up in electrification proposals as that seems like another 'quick win.'

 

[Chris125]

As someone has referenced problems with breaking the Waterloo-Exeter service up, can I ask a question about this service?

Historically there was the well known 4REP/Class 33 hauled service to Weymouth to enable the portion on electrified routes to be electrically operated.

Why was this never attempted with the service to Exeter? As far as I can tell the service remained diesel hauled throughout, eventually ending up with 50s rejected from the WCML.

I've seen it suggested that Basingstoke was too busy to allow splitting and joining trains, i doubt the track layout lent itself to such operations either.

Chris

 

[tbtc]

Is there any reason why the Southern 171 routes haven't come up in electrification proposals as that seems like another 'quick win.'

Bald Rick posted something very interesting last week (?) regarding the problems with wiring these - will see if I can find it

 

[pablo]

There are 18 overbridges between Crewe MPD and Chester.

 

[Bald Rick]

et voila

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=74240&page=3

 

[lancastrian]

I've seen it said that GOBLIN would be a very hard line to electrify, due to bridges/ tunnels etc - which is frustrating as it seems a fairly "quick win".

Would it help to look for flatter routes like Ely - Norwich as places that are simpler to electrify?

You beat me to it. This is a line that in any normal, civilised country would have been electrified years ago. Other line that seem to be difficult to electrify are Selby to Hull, York to Scarborough & Northallerton to Middlesborough. But these are only difficult due to lake of political will.

 

[Penmorfa]

There are 18 overbridges between Crewe MPD and Chester.

and a very tight tunnel under the canal near Chester

 

[AndyLandy]

Diesel dragging EMUs off the juice seems like a perfectly sensible interim solution for the Waterloo-Exeter line, so long as the wires (or 3rd rail) are ran all the way to Salisbury.

Although, the question is what locos would you haul them with? I'd be reluctant to place an order for new locos, but I don't know what we've got spare that's not very old now.

As for Crewe-Chester, I still like the idea of a chord in Hartford to run the trains into Chester along the Mid Cheshire Railway. I'm sure it's completely hare-brained, but the idea pleases me.

 

[tbtc]

Bald Rick posted something very interesting last week (?) regarding the problems with wiring these - will see if I can find it

et voila

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=74240&page=3

That's the one, cheers

I just wish you hadn't put up such a good case for why it won't easily happen, as (to me) it looked like a fairly sensible electrification - not always so easy in reality though

 

[Eagle]

Although, the question is what locos would you haul them with? I'd be reluctant to place an order for new locos, but I don't know what we've got spare that's not very old now.

Hire in some 66s or 67s? (No idea if there'd be enough available.)

 

[The Ham]

Hire in some 66s or 67s? (No idea if there'd be enough available.)

Maybe there will be if the freight companies get electric Locos for the electric spine routes!

 

[Sidious]

For the electric spine, Immingham would be an obvious location to include, if Doncaster to Sheffield gets added. It would then allow for electrification of the North Lincolnshire route from Doncaster to Cleethorpes. A significant structural problem would be the Keadby Canal Drawbridge - the only solution I can think of would be a 'fixed bar' conductor similar to that installed at the drawbridge just south of Crown Point Depot on the approach to Norwich.

 

[HSTEd]

I suppose if you could find a few Mark 3s somewhere (which could be rewired for EMU jumpers) and that 1500hp Class 73 rebuild thing goes through, you might be able to muster enough stock to run top and tailed Mark 3 formations, perhaps using the 442s attached as far as Basingstoke (or if you fitted a couple of miles of new third rail, the first station after the flying junction)....

But that is expensive and would likely be impractical given how many locomotives and coach rakes we have available.