Snow: railways can't win

[Dave1987]

Today as snow was forecast GA cancelled a proportion of services and imposed a 60mph speed restriction to prevent severe disruption being caused. Passengers have complained bitterly about the cancellations, yet if the railway hadn't put the cancelled the services the disruption could have been far far worse. How can the railway possibly win? It's dammed if it does and dammed if it doesn't!

 

[SussexSpotter]

Deleted

 

[87015]

Today as snow was forecast GA cancelled a proportion of services and imposed a 60mph speed restriction to prevent severe disruption being caused. Passengers have complained bitterly about the cancellations, yet if the railway hadn't put the cancelled the services the disruption could have been far far worse. How can the railway possibly win? It's dammed if it does and dammed if it doesn't!

Because the cancellations were a total over-reaction to very little snow. If the full service had run the delays to journeys would have been pretty similar but there would have been a lot more seats available and that would lead to a lot less moaning.

Its a total shambles you can cancel a train, P code it and it doesn't count as a PPM failure.

Much as your constant defending of GA is admirable, you can't expect people to keep putting up without a complaint. c2c down the road among nearly everyone else ran a full service, why couldn't GA?

 

[jopsuk]

With GA, specifically, it was for fear of what might happen with their 23-30 year old rolling stock.

 

[anthony263]

With GA, specifically, it was for fear of what might happen with their 23-30 year old rolling stock.

If thats the case I dread to think what will happen when the Valley Lines are operated by class 315's and it snows

 

[87015]

With GA, specifically, it was for fear of what might happen with their 23-30 year old rolling stock.

Yes, thats what the speed restriction is for. Hence what did run generally ran to time as it only applies during falling snow - wasn't much of that in the PM peak - and doesn't change the cancellations.

Everyone has snow plans (this year anyway) - FCC have basically the same stock and kept going.

 

[Wath Yard]

It's quite astonishing that someone who works for a TOC can claim cancellations and reduced speed running isn't causing a disruption to passengers' journeys.

 

[Dave1987]

I never said it didn't cause disruption, but the company tried to reduce the possible delays. If it hadn't implemented revised timetable they would have got slated had the snow fallen heavy and over heated th traction motors on th 321's. I defend the company because I know people in the control room do the best they can.

 

[tsr]

On the other hand - and as a contrast - I was impressed by the contingency measures down here, including the number of RHTT/deicer trains being run on the FCC Thameslink/Southern network today. Due to the very variable rates and types of precipitation and the type of landscapes the lines go through, combined with rapidly shifting temperatures, I think the mitigation was in proportion to the hazard. So far, it all seems to have gone quite smoothly down here, with the exception of a handful of failed trains on the WLL, at Shoreham-By-Sea and at Farringdon (possibly a few more), plus emergency engineering work in a couple of London locations. Speed restrictions were not deemed necessary, though, and most of the snow and ice did melt quickly, though a refreeze is expected imminently.

 

[daikilo]

If thats the case I dread to think what will happen when the Valley Lines are operated by class 315's and it snows

Just how fast do you think they will be travelling in good weather? Not sure a snow limit to 60mph will have much impact. Increased braking distances might!

 

[Wath Yard]

The company is doing the best it can for whom? The passenger, or as 87015 suggests, the company?

 

[tbtc]

The same Daily Mail/ Express that were shrieking a few days ago about "OMG - SIX FEET OF SNOW ON ITS WAY - WILL DECIMATE THE UK" headlines is now saying "tsch, a few flakes of snow and the country grinds to a halt"!

 

[Goatboy]

Today as snow was forecast GA cancelled a proportion of services and imposed a 60mph speed restriction to prevent severe disruption being caused.

So to avoid potential severe disruption they introduced certain severe disruption?

How can the railway possibly win?

By being better at this sort of thing, presumably. Perhaps they could ask c2c for advice.

 

[Dave1987]

The company is doing the best it can for whom? The passenger, or as 87015 suggests, the company?

Well I hope it's for the passenger.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So to avoid potential severe disruption they introduced certain severe disruption?



By being better at this sort of thing, presumably. Perhaps they could ask c2c for advice.

They implemented a revised service and cancelled some services to taken into consideration the blanket 60mph limit. With the normal amount of trains running the serve would have had major delays

 

[Skimble19]

FCC, meanwhile, have so far run a very good service.. Both trains i went on were on time today, not short formed or re-timed.

Everything else seems fairly good on both sides.

 

[Dave1987]

FCC, meanwhile, have so far run a very good service.. Both trains i went on were on time today, not short formed or re-timed.

My god someone saying FCC have run a good service? Would never have believed it lol. Maybe they were being a bit too cautious.

 

[87015]

All talk of a 60mph limit appears to be moot - all the trains which did run largely did so to time, certainly no worse than a normal GE peak. So either there wasn't a 60mph limit, or the drivers ignored it, which somewhat weakens GAs position in saying it was "necessary disruption"...

 

[jopsuk]

So to avoid potential severe disruption they introduced certain severe disruption?

"severe"? How many departures from Liverpool Street do they have over the period that they cancelled services? Yes, any cancellation will be a bad thing- in this case presumably leading to some nasty overcrowding.

By being better at this sort of thing, presumably. Perhaps they could ask c2c for advice.

"have trains ten years newer, have an entirely modernised signalling system, have minimal interactions with freight and almost no interactions with other TOCs"? Superb advice!

 

[Dave1987]

All talk of a 60mph limit appears to be moot - all the trains which did run largely did so to time, certainly no worse than a normal GE peak. So either there wasn't a 60mph limit, or the drivers ignored it, which somewhat weakens GAs position in saying it was "necessary disruption"...

Was this thanks to the altered timetable though??

 

[HH]

This evening I didn't see any cancellations, but to be fair I wasn't in the station long - the next train was only 5 minutes from leaving when I arrived. It ran a little slow, but then trains around 1800 often do.

The site says the following:

As a result of todays weather forecast we have imposed a 60mph speed limit which will affect services between London and Southend Victoria, Colchester, Ipswich, Cambridge in both directions.

The speed restriction has been put in place to reduce the risk of snow being drawn into the electric motors on our services which can cause damage when it melts. It also prevents the build-up of snow and ice on the underside of trains which can cause damage to the tracks/signals when it falls from the train.

As a result of these speed restrictions we expect delays of up to 30 minutes to occur throughout the evening.

The following service alterations will apply this afternoon/evening

Services towards London Liverpool Street

21:20 Colchester – Colchester Town - Cancelled

That's only one cancellation. Up to 30 minutes is probably just ass-covering. The reason given is what has caused problems on many of the older trains, although the problems of two years ago were caused by the attempted "fix".

I think it is over-reaction, but maybe they know something I don't.

 

[colchesterken]

Ours is a very delicate railway , must be treated gently!
If it gets too hot the trains have to slow down if it gets too cold they have to slow down
It seems the thing only works in mid range temps. It would not happen on Sodor the
fat controler would say the trains were not being usefull

 

[87015]

Was this thanks to the altered timetable though??

What altered timetable? Unless I've missed something there was just a set of cancellations - no extra time in the schedules.

 

[tbtc]

So to avoid potential severe disruption they introduced certain severe disruption?

No - in anticipation of problems they had a "Plan B" - something that the railway isn't always great at

 

[Dave1987]

A duct was fitted to 321's motors to stop snow clogging up air intakes and getting into motors themselves. I also think control were being ultra cautious, whether that was correct or not is up for debate.

 

[87015]

"have trains ten years newer, have an entirely modernised signalling system, have minimal interactions with freight and almost no interactions with other TOCs"? Superb advice!

Well there no down freight on the GE during the PM peak, thats been banned for decades, no other operators and the GE signalling is also largely renewed. Get a couple through Barking though...

The two tracks out of Fenchurch Street are more tightly timetabled than either the E or M lines out of Liverpool Street!

 

[Dave1987]

What altered timetable? Unless I've missed something there was just a set of cancellations - no extra time in the schedules.

All drivers would have obeyed any blanket restriction posted when they booked on. Could be disciplined if they didn't.

 

[HH]

Well in the region the snow was pretty heavy just before the evening peak. By the time the real peak started though the snow had largely stopped. If they were sensible they would go back to plan A. Maybe they did, because as I said I didn't see any large scale disruption at all and we were only our "normal" few minutes late.

Hmm, well if you go here it seems there were more problems, but many are down to "emergency engineering work".

 

[O L Leigh]

I think a few cancellations and an overly cautious blanket restriction on certain services is better than having the entire service shot to pieces by snow ingress killing units in the peaks. A spoonful of prevention in this instance has to be better than a bucket of cure.

O L Leigh

 

[43074]

The London, Tilbury & Southend comparison is by and large invalid, talking about similarities or differences.

c2c: Only operate Class 357 Electrostar units, with very similar (or identical) acceleration and braking. Train Calling patterns are by and large similar, although a few peak services are non-stop to Laindon IIRC, There is a small amount of freight to Tilbury, but that's it. It's a 2-track railway from London Fenchurch Street.

Greater Anglia: Operate Class 315, 317, 321, 360 & LHCS services, with contrasting acceleration and braking. Train Calling patterns differ massively: on GEML there are non-stop services to Colchester and Ipswich running alongside services which call at Stratford, Shenfield and all stations to Witham. There is a substantial amount of freight on the route to/from Felixtowe, as well as the North Walsham to Harwich tankers and Ipswich Griffon Wharf to Rugby DBS Intermodal trains. A 4-track railway from London to Shenfield, 2-track thereafter.

 

[Pugwash]

Today as snow was forecast GA cancelled a proportion of services and imposed a 60mph speed restriction to prevent severe disruption being caused. Passengers have complained bitterly about the cancellations, yet if the railway hadn't put the cancelled the services the disruption could have been far far worse. How can the railway possibly win? It's dammed if it does and dammed if it doesn't!

Given the fares on Greater Anglia commuters quite rightly expect their trains to run in all but exceptional circumstances.

Yesterday was not exceptional weather.