Railway staff lying to the BTP

[Mojo]

Queue the posts stating that i am wrong, poorly trained and that the TEH is wrong and they are right... :roll::roll:

Nobody has said it's wrong... it's just that your post is completely irrelevant! Indigo2 had the OUT portion of an SVR Off-Peak Return. The individual ticket in question was valid for overnight break of journey with a resumption the next day, subject to conditions, which were all complied with.

 

[RJ]

RJ

I know our paths have crossed in the past (online) and I come with no malice and am not in any way going to justify the actions of staff physically restraining you. If you have had malicious accusations made against you then that is reprehensible.

I am also impressed with the speed that you stated the type of ticket you were using on this occasion!

Anyway, like you I have fallen foul of circumstances in the past, in my case being guilty of travelling to main land Europe far too much and to places that were deemed as being a risk, to the extent that I was frequently detained on my way back home. In most cases a simple proof of where I had been was enough to get waved away, although on one occasion this took a few hours. I had no recourse to complain, the immigration and customs bods can pretty much do as they please! I learnt a lot from it and as with most things like this, rather than get caught up in a hate campaign I actually found the whole procedure quite interesting. Of course getting married and having kids took me off the radar!

Anyway, back to the matter in hand. You state that when at Ashford you had an itinerary issued by the ticket office as evidence which was obviously not believed. Before you embark on your adventures you obviously do some (!) research. You also know that the staff you encounter will be unfamiliar with that research. I know and you know that they will almost certainly not be trained to that level of understanding. Would it not be pertinent to simply carry the extracts that you use to do your research as evidence to show staff that you ticket is indeed valid? I appreciate that there is no obligation on your part to do so. When I used to get stopped on a regular basis I always kept receipts from Hotels and reservations on sleepers etc as evidence that I had nothing to hide. This did seem to help me. Or is there, just a little part of you that likes the thrill of it?

Grid

I don't enjoy the thrill of it at all. I always travel for a specific purpose and wish to do so for as low a price as the law will permit, without being persecuted for it. It just so happens I'm over a hundred miles away from home for much of the week and my best friends are scattered across the country. I did obtain the itinerary from the ticket office at Ashford, but staff further down the line said that I could have printed off from anywhere and refused to take any notice of it.

Regardless of my attitude or any paperwork I present, in several cases it has been an insurmountable challenge to convince the staff involved to take heed of what I explain to them. When I reveal that I work for a TOC, in a ticketing discipline, I'm told that I should know better and that I'm going to be sacked/will get a criminal record/will be put in a cell/will never work for the railways again. That's if they don't accuse me of making it up first. Railway people looking after their own at its finest.

Against the best wishes of the staff I refer to in this thread, I have not ever been arrested in my entire life. I know the BTP are partially bankrolled by the TOCs, but staff should be made aware that the BTP are not to be used as playthings to assist them with bullying the customers around. I will be pushing for this matter to be relaid to front line staff, as it's clear that an unacceptable number are summoning them for inappropriate reasons and more worryingly, inventing stories because they know they won't attend if given the objective facts.

As for revealing what tickets I use, the powers that be have engineered it so that any tickets I present are logged and reported back specifically to those who are in a position to have changes requested and actioned. Those following the story will be well aware that East Midlands Trains have been particularly proactive in closing loopholes I have been using. I am also of the understanding that the route Tilbury tickets have been a contentious matter for some time. So for certain situations, there is no purpose in me being covert.

You're braver than me for venturing into such parts of Europe!

 

[yorkie]

I don't enjoy the thrill of it at all. I always travel for a specific purpose and wish to do so for as low a price as the law will permit, without being persecuted for it. It just so happens I'm over a hundred miles away from home for much of the week and my best friends are scattered across the country. I did obtain the itinerary from the ticket office at Ashford, but staff further down the line said that I could have printed off from anywhere and refused to take any notice of it.

You will need to repeat this quite often as I don't think some people are reading the whole thread before reaching their conclusions.

I did obtain the itinerary from the ticket office at Ashford, but staff further down the line said that I could have printed off from anywhere and refused to take any notice of it.

As for itineraries, I have been in correspondence with numerous people over disputes regarding itineraries, and I am always willing to help anyone in any way I can. It is clear that some TOCs have no intention of honouring itineraries that they don't like the look of (despite ATOC guidance to the contrary), for example XC and ScotRail. Some staff have stated itineraries are worthless and have no contractual value, even when the itineraries were produced at the time of booking, by the website, and even when reservations were issued. How these staff react depends, but the younger the person, the worse they are treated.

For balance and to get things into perspective though, I must add though that the vast majority of staff will, quite rightly, honour an itinerary and/or reservations.

 

[grid56126]

I don't enjoy the thrill of it at all. I always travel for a specific purpose and wish to do so for as low a price as the law will permit, without being persecuted for it. It just so happens I'm over a hundred miles away from home for much of the week and my best friends are scattered across the country. I did obtain the itinerary from the ticket office at Ashford, but staff further down the line said that I could have printed off from anywhere and refused to take any notice of it.

Regardless of my attitude or any paperwork I present, in several cases it has been an insurmountable challenge to convince the staff involved to take heed of what I explain to them. When I reveal that I work for a TOC, in a ticketing discipline, I'm told that I should know better and that I'm going to be sacked/will get a criminal record/will be put in a cell/will never work for the railways again. That's if they don't accuse me of making it up first. Railway people looking after their own at its finest.

Against the best wishes of the staff I refer to in this thread, I have not ever been arrested in my entire life. I know the BTP are partially bankrolled by the TOCs, but staff should be made aware that the BTP are not to be used as playthings to assist them with bullying the customers around. I will be pushing for this matter to be relaid to front line staff, as it's clear that an unacceptable number are summoning them for inappropriate reasons and more worryingly, inventing stories because they know they won't attend if given the objective facts.

As for revealing what tickets I use, the powers that be have engineered it so that any tickets I present are logged and reported back specifically to those who are in a position to have changes requested and actioned. Those following the story will be well aware that East Midlands Trains have been particularly proactive in closing loopholes I have been using. I am also of the understanding that the route Tilbury tickets have been a contentious matter for some time. So for certain situations, there is no purpose in me being covert.

You're braver than me for venturing into such parts of Europe!

Fair enough sir. For the avoidance of doubt I have no connection with closure of loopholes!

No need to be brave to explore Europe and there is little need to worry about ticketing issues either. Generally cheaper and much much simpler. But, if you don't have one (ticket) expect an on the spot fine or a mate with a car to pick you up from the remote station you end up at.

Grid

 

[thedbdiboy]

it depends on the ticket type...

say for example SDS (standard day single) it permits a break of journey but the journey must be completed in the day. a SOS (standard open single) also permits a break of journey but you have five days to complete it in.

some tickets allow overnight break even if the expirey date is the previous day, these are usually associated with journies which physically can not be made within the day...

I shall post EXACTLY what it says in the TEH (ticket examiners handbook) issued only a few months ago, when i get back from my travels.

Ticket is out of date, then tough luck you'll need to buy another one!

Queue the posts stating that i am wrong, poorly trained and that the TEH is wrong and they are right... :roll::roll:

An SOS is valid for 2 days (a slip of the keyboard there I assume).

However, as things stand, an Off-Peak ticket does allow travel into the second day if the journey 'cannot' be completed on the first day, the nature of the rule meaning that it is down to the customer to decide. Such a rule is frankly ridiculous for a journey from Sheffield to York but as the same off-peak ticket type is used on that journey as for a journey from, say, Plymouth to Aberdeen, the same rules have to apply.

There is a piece of work in progress to split longer and shorter distance off-peak tickets into two ticket types. Once that has happened, we can move to a far more sensible arrangement in which the shorter distances will only be valid for one day, and the longer ones will be valid for two days, and it will state clearly on the ticket which applies.

Until then, the rule remains that for an Off-Peak return the journey must commence on the first day, but if it cannot be completed you can finish the journey the following day. The definition of 'cannot be completed' needs to be left to the customer because the definition of which ones cannot be completed depends on so many outside factors, e.g. actual distance; the time that travel commenced; the route being taken; whether there is engineering work or disruption; the need for a passenger actually to stop somewhere they can spend the night; and so on.

Many of the users of this site are very eagle eyed and will happily exploit a rule for a purpose that isn't intended - and, lets face it, anyone going from, say, Rugby to London who claims they cannot complete the journey and must spend the night in Milton Keynes is definitely exploiting this rule in a way that is not the intention. But in that regard, it is no different to split tickets, permitted routes, etc etc. If you know the rules and use them to the letter, it is allowed...!

 

[RJ]

Fair enough sir. For the avoidance of doubt I have no connection with closure of loopholes!

No need to be brave to explore Europe and there is little need to worry about ticketing issues either. Generally cheaper and much much simpler. But, if you don't have one (ticket) expect an on the spot fine or a mate with a car to pick you up from the remote station you end up at.

Grid

I'm likely to be going on a tour of Eastern Europe in the summer holidays, but not by rail. I'm not foolhardy enough to play around with a system I don't know anything about, so can't see myself going international with the whole ticketing thing!

it depends on the ticket type...

say for example SDS (standard day single) it permits a break of journey but the journey must be completed in the day. a SOS (standard open single) also permits a break of journey but you have five days to complete it in.

some tickets allow overnight break even if the expirey date is the previous day, these are usually associated with journies which physically can not be made within the day...

I shall post EXACTLY what it says in the TEH (ticket examiners handbook) issued only a few months ago, when i get back from my travels.

Ticket is out of date, then tough luck you'll need to buy another one!

Queue the posts stating that i am wrong, poorly trained and that the TEH is wrong and they are right... :roll::roll:

Regardless of what has been said in the past, I feel it's a positive step that you're actually reading these pages and engaging with people on here. The truth is, quite a few of the regular posters on this website have a keen interest in ticketing and actively seek to learn about the system. Whereas many staff learn in a more passive manner, through regurgitated periodic notices where important details may have been lost in translation. It's not inconceivable that those on here will have picked things up that have been missed by TOC staff.

It may also be helpful to bear in mind that customers actually have access to the same information that staff do, in terms of ticketing validity and procedures. Each side has complete control over how much, or how little they choose to learn. Therefore, staff having superior knowledge is a fallacy. So when passengers claim something that contravenes your own understanding, it is always worth investigating the matter. Which in this case, I can see you have done with reference to the Ticket Examiners Handbook. However, if there are people on here saying that information in there is out of date, there is a very good chance they have quite correctly picked up on something that is not right.

I'd like to think that over time, we can at least mitigate this "them and us" enthusiast vs staff attitude. At the moment, there is too much hypocrisy and general pettiness being bandied around when the fact of the matter is, both sides could actually benefit from each other's perspectives. I have respect for those on here who have made it apparent that they are staff and give us the benefit of their experience, as well as taking things away which will be of benefit to their working practices. I'm quite prepared to admit that I stand to learn from what people post on this website.

By the same token, I will not pledge allegiance with staff who wilfully behave in an inappropriate manner, sneer at customers of the railway online or otherwise and bully them around when at work. They are letting the side down. There are certainly bad apples in various grades, be it guards, ticket office clerks or RPIs whose personalities are at odds with the safe, efficient and courteous operation of the railways. I also dislike the phrase "poor training" because as I say, you don't need to be on the railwage to open up the NRCoC or read restriction code text. I'd sooner see them put through formal disciplinary processes than criticise customers who have been subjected to their substandard method of operation and feel aggrieved enough to share their bad experiences.

 

[island]

There is a piece of work in progress to split longer and shorter distance off-peak tickets into two ticket types.

Are they not already so split into Off-Peak Single (SVS) and Off-Peak Day Single (CDS)?

 

[RJ]

I had more rubbish through my front door today.

I'm very sorry to hear of the problems that you experienced on your journeys between Canterbury West and Tilbury on 1 April.

I understand you were informed by a conductor that your ticket was not valid for the journey you was making. I can confirm that your ticket wasn't valid for you to use our High Speed services and you were required to purchase a High Speed upgrade to continue your journey. As I'm sure you're aware, all passengers must be in possession of a valid ticket to travel.

It's a case of one step forward and six steps back with these people. I had an email from Southeastern three weeks ago confirming that they were aware that they had to adhere to the NRCoC;

I'm sorry you were told by a number of Southeastern staff that the NRCoC doesn't apply to the High Speed service and that only "Plus High Speed" tickets are valid on the High Speed service. As you know, both these points are incorrect. I'm very sorry you were given the wrong information. I can assure you that this has been passed to the Area Station Manager to deal with accordingly.


May I also apologise that you were given an out of date NRCoC booklet at Ashford. I've also alerted the Station Manager to this so the stock can be updated. I've attached a copy of the correctly dated booklet for your reference.

If we can offer any other information, please do not hesitate to contact Southeastern Customer Services directly. ​

Despite the NRCoC Condition 13 stating that any negative route restrictions precluding an otherwise permitted route must be shown on the ticket, they are still operating to the principle that the HS1 is exempt from the NRCoC and that only Plus High Speed routed ticket can be used. I wasn't asked to pay for a HS Upgrade ticket - I was told I'd have to pay the full excess up to the Any Permitted fare. The left arm doesn't know what the right one is doing it would seem.

One thing that is consistent is that not a single member of Southeastern staff has offered any form of explanation as to why the ticket was not valid, other than that it had to be routed Plus High Speed. My attempts to engage in any educated discussion about the rules governing validity have all failed and I have reason to believe that this is coming from the top down. Why are Southeastern permitted to operate to a set of rules that the public don't have access to, seemingly being given free licence to completely circumvent the system currently in place to suit their own interests? They're already getting away with violating their Schedule 17 obligations at my local station on a long term basis and I still don't see any affirmative action being taken.

If someone could help me to understand why this is the case then I'd be very appreciative.

The letter later goes on to say;

On a separate issue, I understand that you were given a penalty fare. I hope you'll understand that we are unable to comment on, or adjudicate in, any appeal against the imposition of a Penalty Fare from this office. The Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS), which is operated in line with strict guidelines set and governed by the Department for Transport and has its own code of practice, can only assess such appeals. No train company can affect their decision or judgement. Therefore, please contact them using the contact details below if you wish to appeal your penalty fare

[generic IPFAS address given]

Yet more of being treated like I came down with the last rainfall!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Why are Southeastern permitted to operate to a set of rules that the public don't have access to, seemingly being given free licence to completely circumvent the system currently in place to suit their own interests?

Regardless of the validity or otherwise of fares that might be via the Tilbury ferry, if you plan a journey from Canterbury to somewhere the other side of London, you can get a choice of routes via St Pancras, Charing Cross or Waterloo, all at the same fare without any offer of an HS1 ticket at a different price.

 

[reb0118]

I'm likely to be going on a tour of Eastern Europe in the summer holidays, but not by rail. I'm not foolhardy enough to play around with a system I don't know anything about, so can't see myself going international with the whole ticketing thing!

It's not too difficult, & quite cheap. If you want any info. then drop me a PM. Would you qualify for FIP travel?

 

[yorkie]

Why can't they call a spade a spade and admit what they are really thinking.

This is what they meant...

I'm not at all sorry to hear of the problems that you experienced on your journeys between Canterbury West and Tilbury on 1 April.

I understand you were told by a conductor that your ticket was not valid for the journey you was making. I cannot be bothered to look at what the rules say and I think that High Speed services are special, and that the normal rules of routeing and NRCoC do not apply. As I'm sure you're aware, all passengers must be in possession of ticket that we like the look of, regardless of validity.

On a separate issue, I understand that you were given a penalty fare. I will pretend to hope you'll understand that we are unable to admit that we were wrong to issue this Penalty Fare. We lack the required training and knowledge and we do as we please. Our Company has a subsidiary, which we have called The Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS), which is operated in line with lax guidelines and a poor code of practice that is barely followed, can only assess such appeals. No train company can affect their decision or judgement, that is a matter for our subsidiary company. Therefore, please contact our even less knowledgeable subsidiary using the contact details below if you wish to appeal your penalty fare

Only in the rail industry would such madness occur.

You couldn't make it up if you tried...

Sorry, got to go, I need to contact the Independent Supermarket Appeals Service, a wholly owned subsidiary of Tesco, as I've been incorrectly charged by Tesco....:roll: (No, not really, Tesco don't have a Mole infestation)

 

[BrownE]

Yorkie, you've got it all wrong! They follow the code of practice, basically it says:

1. In the first instance, reject the appeal
2. If they appeal again;

a. if they possibly have a point, accept the appeal​

i. Continue to send debt collection letters​

b. otherwise reject the appeal​

3. Go to step 2.

 

[transmanche]

Only in the rail industry would such madness occur.

Can you imagine what would happen if the forum members set up a company to bid for contracts to operate an 'independent appeals service'?!?!

 

[bb21]

Can you imagine what would happen if the forum members set up a company to bid for contracts to operate an 'independent appeals service'?!?!

Providing value for money for the government?

Only if the government works like that.

 

[yorkie]

Take a look at this: https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Policy%202002.pdf

I won't disect it all here, but let's just say the TOCs don't adhere to it, and no-one is going to make them.

For example, have EMT and SET's High Speed services in mind when you read this...

When considering a penalty fares scheme, we will first consider whether penalty fares are appropriate, given the type of train service provided and the other ways in which that operatorcould protect its revenue. A penalty fares scheme is most suited to urban or suburban train services where most stations have ticket facilities, and where busy trains and short intervals between stations make it impossible to check every passenger’s ticket between every stop. We may question the need for a penalty fares scheme to cover long-distance services, where a conductor is able to check every passenger, or rural services operated as ‘paytrains’, where most stations are unstaffed and it is normal practice to buy tickets on board the train. Also,a utomatic ticket gates are being used at more stations to control entry to the platforms. A penalty fares scheme might not be necessary if all, or almost all, of the stations concerned had these gates

And here's the best bit...

Authorised collectors must be properly trained in the Penalty Fares Rules and the relevant penalty fares scheme or schemes, ticket types and restrictions, excess fare instructions, the National Routeing Guide and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. We also expect training to be given in customer care and how to avoid conflicts.

Each trainee must be assessed after training, and they may only be appointed as an authorised collector (and given the formal identification referred to in rule 5) when their knowledge and ability is judged to be satisfactory. As well as initial training, authorised collectors will need refresher training at sufficient intervals to keep their knowledge up to date. A system of routine briefing is also needed to make sure that they are aware of day-to-day issues and events as they arise. We will need to be sure that these arrangements are satisfactory

That just isn't enforced at all.

I know of numerous people who have encountered staff on EMT and SET high speed services, who clearly do NOT have "satisfactory" knowledge of the NRCoC and Routeing Guide and who firmly believe that their own views regarding routeing take precedence. It's not just RJ.

By the way if anyone feels they may have been issued with a PF by EMT incorrectly, please get in touch. There are MANY people in this situation and that could be significant...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can you imagine what would happen if the forum members set up a company to bid for contracts to operate an 'independent appeals service'?!?!

Far too many appeals would be won. This would offer poor value for the Government, as the TOCs would insist on more subsidy. Incorrect PFs, excess fares etc is a nice little earner for some TOCs.

 

[bb21]

Far too many appeals would be won. This would offer poor value for the Government, as the TOCs would insist on more subsidy. Incorrect PFs, excess fares etc is a nice little earner for some TOCs.

On the contrary, I think we would provide far too good value for the government. There would be no need for quangos such as Passenger Focus, etc.

The only problem is that then the government will probably need to provide alternative employment for those people, or allow them to go on the benefits system, ...

Doesn't really fit in with the ethos of this government.

As for funding shortfalls, the government will probably allow fares to increase by RPI + 30% to compensate. They wanted the travelling public to pay a larger share towards the cost of running the railway.

 

[londonboi198o5]

I had a look today while at st pancras and out of curiosity I went to a ticket machine and typed in a single journey from "london - margate". When the prices popped up it showed a std fare for the slow train and a more expensive fare for the "high speed train"
When I clicked the cheaper fare it flashes up "this ticket IS NOT valid on high speed services" you then need to press "confirm" to buy that ticket. In doing so your agreeing to the terms issued by the ticket

This also happened at my local surburban station so it is pretty clear when you buy a ticket what's valid and what's not

 

[furlong]

When I clicked the cheaper fare it flashes up "this ticket IS NOT valid on high speed services" you then need to press "confirm" to buy that ticket. In doing so your agreeing to the terms issued by the ticket

Those are South Eastern fares with text describing the route either PLUS HIGH SPEED or NOT VALID ON HS1. Plenty of other tickets between other places have different restriction texts that are or are not valid on the restricted part of the route but make no reference to HIGH SPEED or HS1.

But perhaps that pop-up message should say something more like:

This ticket is ONLY valid on trains that take routes that AVOID the particular locations that form the High Speed 1 railway line between...

to try to wriggle inside NRCoC condition 13 (d) (i) and avoid the risk presented by condition 58?

 

[RJ]

I had a look today while at st pancras and out of curiosity I went to a ticket machine and typed in a single journey from "london - margate". When the prices popped up it showed a std fare for the slow train and a more expensive fare for the "high speed train"
When I clicked the cheaper fare it flashes up "this ticket IS NOT valid on high speed services" you then need to press "confirm" to buy that ticket. In doing so your agreeing to the terms issued by the ticket

This also happened at my local surburban station so it is pretty clear when you buy a ticket what's valid and what's not

The tickets you refer to bear a published restriction explicitly stating that the ticket is not valid on HS1. The ticket I used had no such restriction on it.

 

[yorkie]

I had a look today while at st pancras and out of curiosity I went to a ticket machine and typed in a single journey from "london - margate". When the prices popped up it showed a std fare for the slow train and a more expensive fare for the "high speed train"
When I clicked the cheaper fare it flashes up "this ticket IS NOT valid on high speed services" you then need to press "confirm" to buy that ticket. In doing so your agreeing to the terms issued by the ticket

This also happened at my local surburban station so it is pretty clear when you buy a ticket what's valid and what's not

But what's that got to do with SET refusing to accept tickets that have a routeing that doesn't exclude HS1, as is being discussed? (e.g. Any Permitted, via Tilbury but not via Ferry, etc...)

 

[londonboi198o5]

The tickets you refer to bear a published restriction explicitly stating that the ticket is not valid on HS1. The ticket I used had no such restriction on it.

It must have done if you got a penalty fare and SE are standing by there grounds

 

[Zoidberg]

It must have done if you got a penalty fare and are making a big thing of it

Given what has gone before in this thread, the logic of that statement escapes me.

EDIT: Oh, I see that the post quoted has been changed.

 

[bb21]

It must have done if you got a penalty fare and SE are standing by there grounds

That is assuming SE are understanding everything correctly, which they are not.

 

[talltim]

It must have done if you got a penalty fare and SE are standing by there grounds

One or the other has to be wrong. Why should it be RJ?

 

[bb21]

One or the other has to be wrong. Why should it be RJ?

That line of argument doesn't mean anything unfortunately.

In this case of course we know that SE are in the wrong, at least technically, as there is nothing on the ticket to indicate such a routeing restriction as they claim.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

For routes starting at some stations, St Pancras being an example, the choice is between Via HS1 and not valid via HS1. At stations beyond HS1, the usual choice seems to be between "any permitted" and "not via HS1" with the enquiries engine showing routes via HS1 with a higher priced ticket. According to the brfares website, there are also stations where both tickets are the same price. I tested a couple of fairly local stations, so the examples were Slough to Margate and Maidenhead to Margate.

It seems that South Eastern are trying to maintain that "any permitted" doesn't mean not "not via HS1" despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

[londonboi198o5]

No offense to RJ here

Why isit everytime someone does not agree with RJ on this topic all the moderators etc are jumping right in and defending him. As gets told to everyone else on these subjects "you got caught without a valid ticket therefore your breaking the law and are liable for a penalty fare" the same should go to RJ if his ticket is not valid and the inspectors explain why then hee is liable for a penalty fare

For someone who used to work on the railways he should know this. Its like when I buy cheap advance tickets for london to Manchester I can get a return for £ 20.00 but I MUST get the service I booked I can't get one a few hours earlier because my ticket is not for that service even though the same train goes the same route over the same track it is not valid. Which seems to be the repeated case in RJ threads he is buying these cheap tickets and thinks he can go to the. End of the world andd back. Isit not about time this thread get locked until RJ gets a final outcome

Now I shall sit here and await all the moderators defending thus post

 

[bb21]

It seems that South Eastern are trying to maintain that "any permitted" doesn't mean not "not via HS1" despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Southeastern can say whatever they want but the fact remains that "Any Permitted" means any permitted route as defined by the Routeing Guide. Until that changes, they cannot arbitrarily deny travel on HS1 services to holders of "Any Permitted" tickets.

 

[jb]

Now I shall sit here and await all the moderators defending thus post

I'm not a moderator, yet I'd be prepared to bet that SE are talking out of their arse here.

 

[maniacmartin]

the same should go to RJ if his ticket is not valid and the inspectors explain why then hee is liable for a penalty fare

But (as far as I know) all of the cases involving RJ so far have been with valid tickets.

Its like when I buy cheap advance tickets for london to Manchester I can get a return for £ 20.00 but I MUST get the service I booked I can't get one a few hours earlier

No it's not. In your example, the ticket is not valid on a different train. In RJ's cases, the tickets are technically valid even if the routes are somewhat out of the ordinary,