Derailment on the Great Central Railway

[Bedpan]

The grapevine is saying that they were authorised to pass the signal at danger, yet obviously, the signalman hadn't set the route correctly. They crew clearly didn't check it for themselves.

I had a phone call at around 11ish on Saturday morning from somebody who was there, and he said exactly the same thing. Looking at the video, it is clear that the trap points are not set, so the photographer is another person who could potentially have saved the day.

The first TPO carriage had a lucky escape, only cms from being derailed also.

 

[GB]

Looking at the video, it is clear that the trap points are not set, so the photographer is another person who could potentially have saved the day.

If the signaller didn't notice and if the train crew didn't notice then why would you think a random photographer would notice?

 

[tiptoptaff]

One wonders if the reason he was given permission to pass at danger was because the signaller couldn't pull off, leading him to think he had a signalling issue, when in fact his signal was interlocked with the fact he hadn't set the trap points....

 

[grid56126]

I had a phone call at around 11ish on Saturday morning from somebody who was there, and he said exactly the same thing. Looking at the video, it is clear that the trap points are not set, so the photographer is another person who could potentially have saved the day.

The first TPO carriage had a lucky escape, only cms from being derailed also.

I have seen this mentioned elsewhere. Blame Blame Blame Blame. The photographer is just that. If the photographer was coincidently a person who has sound railway experience then there is just a small chance he might have noticed and attempted to alert the crew. You would then need the crew to differentiate between that and some of the frothing arm waving whistle baiting bofoons.

The last time I looked on the rule book there was no mention of photographers responsibilities when trains are being talked past signals. Likewise I have yet to find any mention of internet warriors being invited to attend or be involved in the process of enquiries.

At the end of the day we are all entitled to our opinions and I have expressed mine enough in the past, but some people need to bear in mind the effects their comments can have on people who give up their free time for your enjoyment.

The truth will out


Grid

 

[Zoidberg]

The video in the opening post shows the premath and the math. This video shows some of the aftermath.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ofOJsFRlk

EDIT: I tried to be clever and include the video clip in this post, as per the OP, but I failed.

 

[JohnB57]

GCR spokeswoman Kate Tilley said: "We're not sure what happened, the cause is still under investigation. It was a very low impact derailment. Only the driver was on the train."

From here.

 

[Bedpan]

I have seen this mentioned elsewhere. Blame Blame Blame Blame. The photographer is just that. If the photographer was coincidently a person who has sound railway experience then there is just a small chance he might have noticed and attempted to alert the crew. You would then need the crew to differentiate between that and some of the frothing arm waving whistle baiting bofoons.

The last time I looked on the rule book there was no mention of photographers responsibilities when trains are being talked past signals. Likewise I have yet to find any mention of internet warriors being invited to attend or be involved in the process of enquiries.

At the end of the day we are all entitled to our opinions and I have expressed mine enough in the past, but some people need to bear in mind the effects their comments can have on people who give up their free time for your enjoyment.

The truth will out


Grid

Hello??? Are you suggesting that I am blaming the photographer for what happened? Where have I said that?

I just said that the photographer could have potentially seen that the trap points were not set. I have NOT suggested that he should have been looking, or that he should bear any responsibility for what occurred by virtue of the fact that he did not look. Crikey, in that case, I'd better not go out of the house in case I 'm looking the wrong way or preoccupied with something else when an accident occurs, in case I get the blame for it!

I agree with what you have said at the end of your first paragraph about arm waving buffoons though.
,
Similarly to GB - I didn't for a moment think that a random photographer would notice - I think that there is more chance that I wouldn't have done than I would have done - but I repeat, if he had noticed, and he had been able to draw the loco crew's attention, (bearing in mind Grid's valid comment about frothing arm waving whistle baiting bofoons), he would have been the hero of the day.

 

[JohnB57]

Do ferrets often carry red flags?

Depends on their political affiliations.

 

[E&W Lucas]

From here.

She must be their marketing person, to come out with c*** like that!
Fireman clearly visible on the video (LHD loco).

 

[Tomnick]

She must be their marketing person, to come out with c*** like that!

How did you guess .

 

[lonogrol]

I know that on L.U.L. infrastructure when passing a signal that protects points then the points must either be secured manually - with a clip and scotch block - or secured remotely - through route secure, route proving or the route card procedure, and then once confirmation received the train operator should check that any points over which they pass have been secured and are set in the correct position. Does a similar procedure not exist in the rule book for network rail lines (or whatever version of the B.R. rule book the Great Central railway use)?

 

[DarloRich]

@bedpan/grid

Whilst it is clearly not the responsibility of the photographer to notice if the switch is set correctly or to try and warn the driver he (or she) may be asked to give evidence to any investigation. Also the pictures taken could form part of the evidence submitted to any enquiry.

After all he will have been the closest indipendant witness to the accident!

 

[MGDawson]

Allow me to tell the story.

Story goes is that the signal man couldn't set the siding signal to clear for the train to proceed onto the mainline, so he told the guard that it wasn't working and that he'd give a hand signal to proceed. Guard relayed this to the driver. Driver proceeded to take the train out of the siding, without checking the road... and then derailed his train on the catch :roll: trap points.

Not only did it require for the loco's tender to have the water pumped out, but there's severe damage to the tender's brake bars, and a gas axe had to be used to separate them; and the TPO's the loco was attempting to pull out have had their emergency brakes applied.

Now, forgive me for saying it, but surely when emerging onto a mainline, even if the signals are clear, a staff member should normally be at ground level near the loco to check the track setting and also for approaching trains or runaways?

The loco's tender suffered damage to it's brake rigging; the video even shows some of this. The tender was emptied of water, before a gas axe was used to separate the loco and tender. My mole tells me the loco wasn't placed back on the track till late evening; 9PM i think was the time he mentioned.

Lastly, the TPO set was juddered so badly that it's emergency brakes applied, and until these are taken off, they cannot be moved. The track also suffered severe damage, and near enough ALL the (concrete) sleepers around the catch point now need replacing.

P.S. The loco's first whistle was to say it was beginning moving, the second to say it was a PSAD manoeuvre.

 

[Tomnick]

Ah, I'm glad you've told the story - there's no need for a full and proper investigation now :roll: . What are these emergency brakes on the TPO set that you speak of? If the loco was rerailed at 2100, then what on Earth was everyone doing until 0200 (see the GCR newsletter) on Sunday morning? What is this nonsense about someone having to stand at ground level for every movement (under clear signals, thus proving the route) onto a running line?

I reckon you need a better mole.

 

[MGDawson]

Ah, I'm glad you've told the story - there's no need for a full and proper investigation now :roll: . What are these emergency brakes on the TPO set that you speak of? If the loco was rerailed at 2100, then what on Earth was everyone doing until 0200 (see the GCR newsletter) on Sunday morning?

Strange, I don't see any mention of 0200.Unless I missed something in the backlog...

EDIT: As for brakes, I think it might be that there was damage sustained to the braking system; exact details haven't been disclosed. There's several items at the GCR with patched brake pipes, though I'm glad to say they're only freight stock. :P

What is this nonsense about someone having to stand at ground level for every movement (under clear signals, thus proving the route) onto a running line?

Well, it's something I've seen mentioned in a few books, but even so, this was still a SPAD manoeuvre.

 

[RPM]

Well whoever's fault it was I feel very sorry for them. Most operational staff mess up to some degree at some point in their career and it is a crushing experience for them. For it to have happened in such a high profile situation must only make that worse.

 

[Tomnick]

Strange, I don't see any mention of 0200.Unless I missed something in the backlog...

Try this instead. I don't think anyone will mind if I add that the loco was fully rerailed shortly after midnight.

EDIT: As for brakes, I think it might be that there was damage sustained to the braking system; exact details haven't been disclosed. There's several items at the GCR with patched brake pipes, though I'm glad to say they're only freight stock. :P

I don't know - might I suggest that you don't know either?

Well, it's something I've seen mentioned in a few books, but even so, this was still a SPAD manoeuvre.

You weren't talking about this move specifically. The very fact that a signal is cleared proves that all facing points are set and detected - I'll tell you that from my knowledge and experience, not from a few books that I've read.

Really, I'm becoming quite tired of folk - not just here - posting utter nonsense dressed up as absolutely indisputable fact. Read the comments on the Youtube video that I'm sure is linked to from here - you might understand some of my frustration then.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It would be lovely if we allowed GCR's investigators to get on with the job rather than deciding we've solved the entire thing on the basis of a 4 minute YouTube video.

 

[455driver]

It would be lovely if we allowed GCR's investigators to get on with the job rather than deciding we've solved the entire thing on the basis of a 4 minute YouTube video.

No need, A bloke down the pub told my brother that a ferret (they were out of moles ) told him that some people will listen to absolute bull manure when somebody makes it sound like they know something when they dont!

Its good that the GCR have seen fit to equip their non passenger coaches with "emergency brakes", its a pity the "big" railway just has ordinary brakes to rely on, and as for the "juddering putting the (imaginary) emergency brake on" I am sure the coaches have had more "juddering" when being coupled up!

 

[E&W Lucas]

EDIT: As for brakes, I think it might be that there was damage sustained to the braking system; exact details haven't been disclosed. There's several items at the GCR with patched brake pipes, though I'm glad to say they're only freight stock. :P

DO you know what these pipes contain?

 

[Jonfun]

Lastly, the TPO set was juddered so badly that it's emergency brakes applied, and until these are taken off, they cannot be moved.

Perhaps you'd be able to enlighten us uninitiated folk as to how these unreleaseable emergency brakes work? Do they just apply on Mk1 TPO sets, or is it a hidden feature of all Mk1s?

 

[Boothby97]

My mole tells me the loco wasn't placed back on the track till late evening; 9PM i think was the time he mentioned.

And I was down at Quorn at 8pm, and even the tender hadn't been rerailed by then. Can't of been 9pm, more like somewhere between midnight and 2am.
Thanks, Sam

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I know that on L.U.L. infrastructure when passing a signal that protects points then the points must either be secured manually - with a clip and scotch block - or secured remotely - through route secure, route proving or the route card procedure, and then once confirmation received the train operator should check that any points over which they pass have been secured and are set in the correct position. Does a similar procedure not exist in the rule book for network rail lines (or whatever version of the B.R. rule book the Great Central railway use)?

Yes - in brief - undetected facing points MUST be clipped before a movement is made over them. Or that is what i was taught both theoretically and practically. Always recommended to walk through any secured route before authorising a move - we had a passenger train derailed one bogie because the signalman ommitted to remove the trailing point clip off a previous move.

 

[Tomnick]

There's no requirement (in the RSSB book at least) to clip points for a facing move with no detection, unless it's a passenger train of course - or, indeed, to even have them checked to see that they're fitting up correctly. It's a pretty sensible precaution though...

 

[Sanatogen]

You always have facing points clipped and scotched if you can't get detection, trailing points just need a scotch.

Edit; T1b simple and complex failures would cover it.

 

[Tomnick]

That only really applies to defective points though - I'd suggest that it doesn't apply where the points are detected mechanically and you're not able to clear the signal (thus not proving the detection) for some other reason, nor for an unsignalled move. Personally I think it's a bit of a failing on the RSSB Rule Book's part. I'd still clip them up, or at the very least ensure that they're fitting up correctly, of course!

 

[Sanatogen]

If you can't clear the signal then one of the requirements of S5 is that you have to have detection before authorising the train to pass the signal, if you can't get detection you refer back to T1b.

For mechanically operated points if you can't get required indications then you should arrange for the points to be checked and that they are in the required position and secured if facing.

Having never worked with mechanical points I had to look that last bit up

 

[E&W Lucas]

If you can't clear the signal then one of the requirements of S5 is that you have to have detection before authorising the train to pass the signal, if you can't get detection you refer back to T1b.

For mechanically operated points if you can't get required indications then you should arrange for the points to be checked and that they are in the required position and secured if facing.

Having never worked with mechanical points I had to look that last bit up

Remember that the Modular Rule Book does not apply to Heritage Railways!
IIRC, the GCR works to a modified version of the BR 1950 book, which many feel is that most suited to a steam powered, vac braked railway.

If you review the ORR guidance, you will find reference to making sure that the Rules used fit the environment. Total common sense.

 

[Sanatogen]

Ah fair enough, I only have experience of the modular rule book.

Edit; it was the post stating no requirement (in RSSB book) to clip and scotch facing points that I disagreed with.

 

[Jonfun]

Once again, everyone applies the RSSB rulebook to Heritage Railways.

Heritage railways aren't the the mainline. Heritage railways are tourist attractions which run a railway. Hence, the RSSB rulebook isn't generally appropriate - and heritage lines will have one appropriate to their operations.

:roll: