Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[HSTEd]

What do they use as a testing bank these days?

I assume there is no some old Class 8x locomotive around as was used for the ECML project?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

What do they use as a testing bank these days?

I assume there is no some old Class 8x locomotive around as was used for the ECML project?

86901 and 902 are load banks

 

[YorkshireBear]

Good to see it progressing to time. Just finishing my dissertation on electrification from a civil engineers view and its amazing to think what services around Leeds and Manchester are going to look like in a few years!!!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've heard on the NW Sparks webpage that mast bases have now started appearing between Huyton to Eccleston Park, on the Huyton to Wigan stretch of the line.

Indeed they have. About 30-odd are in place between Huyton Jn and Thatto Heath.
Plenty of evidence of preparations for more, almost up to the Pilkington complex.
There also appears to be a Balfour Beatty construction base taking shape at the north end of St Helens Central.
Oddly, the concrete bases are all circular, while those on the Chat Moss route were square!
Although the route might seem "easy", there are a couple of very deep rock cuttings to negotiate (smaller versions of Olive Mount) and some very steep embankments.
There also now seem to be about 7 short individual wire runs either side of Eccles, with gaps for various road bridges.

 

[DJH1971]

Indeed they have. About 30-odd are in place between Huyton Jn and Thatto Heath.
Plenty of evidence of preparations for more, almost up to the Pilkington complex.
There also appears to be a Balfour Beatty construction base taking shape at the north end of St Helens Central.
Oddly, the concrete bases are all circular, while those on the Chat Moss route were square!
Although the route might seem "easy", there are a couple of very deep rock cuttings to negotiate (smaller versions of Olive Mount) and some very steep embankments.
There also now seem to be about 7 short individual wire runs either side of Eccles, with gaps for various road bridges.

I've got to say that over 30-odd mast bases in place on what is now Phase 2 shows how things are really hotting up.

They still need to get a move on at the Chat Moss area though, although I did see more evidence of line side activity a few days ago.

 

[Ploughman]

Good to see it progressing to time. Just finishing my dissertation on electrification from a civil engineers view and its amazing to think what services around Leeds and Manchester are going to look like in a few years!!!

I hope you are including the problems that they cause.
If my experience of events around Leeds NW was anything to go by.

No regard for any underground structures in particular to trackside drainage.
The amount of times that we had to rectify drains were the masts had been installed through the pipework we lost count.

Dumping the surplus concrete anywhere they felt like once they had installed a new mast.

They were very reluctant to move the masts out as far as possible when all other parties wanted better sighting or clearer walking routes, access to troughing etc.

Permanently blocking recognised trackside access routes with substations such as at Crossflatts - Bingley. Or making it difficult to get past such as at Apperley Jcn

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've got to say that over 30-odd mast bases in place on what is now Phase 2 shows how things are really hotting up.

They still need to get a move on at the Chat Moss area though, although I did see more evidence of line side activity a few days ago.

There are still half a dozen teams of construction workers doing the massive foundations over the western half of the moss.
Must be something like a hundred orange suits out on the track today. I don't think these are Balfour Beatty people.

Balfour Beatty also put out another profit warning today. http://www.balfourbeatty.com/index.asp?pageid=42&newsid=442
You'd think this would mean better prices for NR electrification work.
On the other hand you don't want a prime electrification contractor in trouble.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They still need to get a move on at the Chat Moss area though, although I did see more evidence of line side activity a few days ago.

I have been out of touch with this project for quite a long time now. Did Chat Moss pose any specific problems with regard to the electrification line works ?

 

[DJH1971]

I have been out of touch with this project for quite a long time now. Did Chat Moss pose any specific problems with regard to the electrification line works ?

Well, it's due to the fact this particular stretch goes over a massive bog. Admittedly, considerably more masts are up than of late but a mile or so stretch still needs to be done.

They need to really do some serious overtime now and I heard earlier in this forum from someone that a second firm has been brought in to do the wiring runs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This document (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=30064785772 pp 185-187 and 205-211)
gives an update on progress and milestones.

It shows that the Chat Moss line speed upgrade will go as follows (mph):

March 2014: Huyton Jn-Astley 75-90, Astley-Patricroft 60-75 (no change east of M60, already 75)
August 2014: Olive Mount-Broad Green 75-80, Broad Green-Huyton Jn 75-90
This ties in with the 3/4-tracking project Roby-Huyton.

Improvements Manchester-Leeds seem to be by signalling changes (flashing yellows etc) rather than line speed upgrade.

 

[185]

March 2014: Huyton Jn-Astley 75-90, Astley-Patricroft 60-75 (no change east of M60, already 75)
August 2014: Olive Mount-Broad Green 75-80, Broad Green-Huyton Jn 75-90
This ties in with the 3/4-tracking project Roby-Huyton.

That 60 limit for most of the Moss beyond the M60 bridge has been diabolical for years, and to only raise it to 75 seems a bit pointless for a line which is for miles mostly dead straight with just one main crossing, no stations and no junctions.

There must be something they can do to get the line speed up to 90 through there and in an age of technology, blaming the shifting base should be a thing of the past.

 

[WatcherZero]

There is, if they were doing it from scratch nowadays they would put in proper foundations. They wont be building a floating raft when they put HS2 through the Moss!

 

[YorkshireBear]

That 60 limit for most of the Moss beyond the M60 bridge has been diabolical for years, and to only raise it to 75 seems a bit pointless for a line which is for miles mostly dead straight with just one main crossing, no stations and no junctions.

There must be something they can do to get the line speed up to 90 through there and in an age of technology, blaming the shifting base should be a thing of the past.

The floating nature of the moss prevents it. When a train passes over it it creates a bow wave in the bog. The train cannot catch up with this or all hell breaks loose and the rail line will collapse. (I don't know how to explain it exactly it is beyond my knowledge). This is also the reason many parts of the GN/GE joint line cannot be put up above 75 mph.

 

[HSTEd]

Really they need to build a new line across the bog.
But that would cost money.

 

[bangor-toad]

The floating nature of the moss prevents it. When a train passes over it it creates a bow wave in the bog. The train cannot catch up with this or all hell breaks loose and the rail line will collapse. (I don't know how to explain it exactly it is beyond my knowledge).

I'll have a go at an explanation:
The bog is a fluid and as a train passes along the embankment, the embankment is pushed into the bog. This creates a bow wave in exactly the same way that a ship moving through water does. This is what creates the wake behind a ship.

The size of the wave is dependant on the speed of the train. If it goes faster, the wave is bigger. These waves move away from the embankment as you'd see from a ship on water. The difference being that energy of the wave has to travel through the embankment and through a bog which will have very different properties to open water - which is why you won't see the wake.

If you go too fast on a boat, the wave builds up and it's hard to go faster and the water is thrashed around. That doesn't matter too much to some water but if the train generates too large a wave it could cause the embankment to vibrate. This doesn't seem too good for the embankment...


Of course there is always another way to consider matters.
If the trains could go fast enough they could generate their own solition wave (Google it!) in the embankment and bog. They could then surf down the front side of that. Mind you, I dread to think what would happen to the embankment when two trains cross in opposite directions...
Cheers,
Jason

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'll have a go at an explanation: Jason

That was great. I understand the theory now.
What I would like to know is whether the "bow wave" has been scientifically measured, or is it just engineering caution?
I know the surrounding area is not a railway route, but Chat Moss as a whole seems to be much drier than it was.
I suppose we should be grateful for 75mph (freight goes up from 40 to 60).
Apparently there weren't any restrictions until the 70s or so.
But the locos (Black 5s etc) wouldn't have exceeded 60 much then anyway.
George Stephenson himself apparently achieved 40mph with Northumbrian on opening day in 1830...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opening_of_the_Liverpool_and_Manchester_Railway

 

[DJH1971]

I bet folk on the CLC line (Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central) are truly going to feel short changed with the transformation of the Chat Moss line.

I can't help feeling surprised that the CLC line isn't earmarked for electrification as it looks quite do-able.

 

[Chris125]

I can't help feeling surprised that the CLC line isn't earmarked for electrification as it looks quite do-able.

Plenty of lines have a good case for electrification but they can't all be done at once - right now the Northern Hub service patterns make the Chat Moss line a higher priority, but i see no reason why the CLC line won't be wired in due course along with other routes out of Manchester.

Chris

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The floating nature of the moss prevents it. When a train passes over it it creates a bow wave in the bog. The train cannot catch up with this or all hell breaks loose and the rail line will collapse. (I don't know how to explain it exactly it is beyond my knowledge). This is also the reason many parts of the GN/GE joint line cannot be put up above 75 mph.

There was a graphic on 'Ice Road Truckers', when it was last on, that showed the consequences (though that was driving over a frozen lake).

 

[Bevan Price]

I know the surrounding area is not a railway route, but Chat Moss as a whole seems to be much drier than it was.
I suppose we should be grateful for 75mph (freight goes up from 40 to 60).
Apparently there weren't any restrictions until the 70s or so.
But the locos (Black 5s etc) wouldn't have exceeded 60 much then anyway.
George Stephenson himself apparently achieved 40mph with Northumbrian on opening day in 1830...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opening_of_the_Liverpool_and_Manchester_Railway

Drying of moss possibly due in part to peat removal (for gardeners, etc.)

Limit was 75 mph throughout in 1960. Maximum steam speeds typically between 65 and 70 mph, occasionally a bit higher. Largest passenger locos were usually Royal Scots & Rebuilt Patriots on Liverpool / Newcastle services. Class 40s could just about manage 75 to 77 mph with typical loads; Peaks occasionally reached 85 mph - there were no data recorders and radar traps in those days.

 

[edwin_m]

I'll have a go at an explanation:
The bog is a fluid and as a train passes along the embankment, the embankment is pushed into the bog. This creates a bow wave in exactly the same way that a ship moving through water does. This is what creates the wake behind a ship.

The size of the wave is dependant on the speed of the train. If it goes faster, the wave is bigger. These waves move away from the embankment as you'd see from a ship on water. The difference being that energy of the wave has to travel through the embankment and through a bog which will have very different properties to open water - which is why you won't see the wake.

If you go too fast on a boat, the wave builds up and it's hard to go faster and the water is thrashed around. That doesn't matter too much to some water but if the train generates too large a wave it could cause the embankment to vibrate. This doesn't seem too good for the embankment...


Of course there is always another way to consider matters.
If the trains could go fast enough they could generate their own solition wave (Google it!) in the embankment and bog. They could then surf down the front side of that. Mind you, I dread to think what would happen to the embankment when two trains cross in opposite directions...
Cheers,
Jason

Do I understand that this is the same thing as an aircraft breaking the sound barrier, and it would result in the vibrational eqivalent of a sonic boom travelling off across the Moss?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The floating nature of the moss prevents it. When a train passes over it it creates a bow wave in the bog. The train cannot catch up with this or all hell breaks loose and the rail line will collapse. (I don't know how to explain it exactly it is beyond my knowledge). This is also the reason many parts of the GN/GE joint line cannot be put up above 75 mph.

Not so very long ago, there was a discussion in part of the television media of a bow wave being formed by the passage of a narrowboat in a canal and of how the bow wave went on undiminished in energy for a great deal of time. The matter of the Severn Bore with the distance travelled inland by the bore was also discussed. Is this any way similar to the matter you have raised ?

 

[Ploughman]

Is the Thorne - Goole line limited by the same conditions?
When it's open that is.
Just thinking of the peat extraction areas alongside the line.

 

[bangor-toad]

Do I understand that this is the same thing as an aircraft breaking the sound barrier, and it would result in the vibrational eqivalent of a sonic boom travelling off across the Moss?

Not really.
Shock waves start to form when the speed of the object (plane / boat / train!) starts to approach the speed waves can move through the air / water / mud.
For a plane in air that's now well known. I'm fairly certain that's never happened in water and I'd bet my lunch a service train doesn't get anywhere near that sort of speed.

What's happening in the bog is normal bow wave formation. If these get to be too large then it will create problems for the embankment. Another poster mentioned Ice Road Truckers - that was a really good example of what can happen when the bow wave gets too big. Simply, there's just too much energy and the wave shakes everything about too much. In open water that doesn't matter as you just get some big spectacular waves. On ice, or on a train embankment, you'd get vibration then cracks then a nasty disaster...

Not so very long ago, there was a discussion in part of the television media of a bow wave being formed by the passage of a narrowboat in a canal and of how the bow wave went on undiminished in energy for a great deal of time. The matter of the Severn Bore with the distance travelled inland by the bore was also discussed. Is this any way similar to the matter you have raised ?

The effect in a canal is a soliton wave. This happens when the bow wave is constrained - as is obvious when it's in a canal. The energy is effectively focused and it doesn't dissipate. This allows the soliton wave to carry on long after whatever caused it has stopped.
It's highly unlikely that you'd get a soliton wave forming in/on the embankment. There is a theoretical way it could happen by *exactly* matching the train's speed with the wave propagation velocity but that would be extremely fast.

Incidentally, it was possible to use the soliton wave in canals. If you whipped your horses to pull the canal barge along really fast it would form a large bow wave, then this would coalesce into the soliton wave. If you could then get the horse to go even faster you could crest the wave and then canal barge would be on the forward, downhill, side of the soliton wave. This had the effect of massively reducing the force needed by the horse and it could sustain remarkably fast and long distance travel.
The only problems were that it was really difficult to get a horse to go that fast, it needed a clear canal and the soliton wave caused absolute havoc with the infrastructure of the canal. It was not commonplace!
It does make a remarkably interesting demonstration in teaching fluid dynamics though.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Incidentally, it was possible to use the soliton wave in canals. If you whipped your horses to pull the canal barge along really fast it would form a large bow wave, then this would coalesce into the soliton wave. If you could then get the horse to go even faster you could crest the wave and then canal barge would be on the forward, downhill, side of the soliton wave. This had the effect of massively reducing the force needed by the horse and it could sustain remarkably fast and long distance travel.
The only problems were that it was really difficult to get a horse to go that fast, it needed a clear canal and the soliton wave caused absolute havoc with the infrastructure of the canal. It was not commonplace!
It does make a remarkably interesting demonstration in teaching fluid dynamics though.

Watersports types call it "planing" - and boy is it hilarious!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wires up properly east of Eccles now.
Also from Parkside Jn round the curve towards Lowton Jn.

 

[DJH1971]

Wires up properly east of Eccles now.
Also from Parkside Jn round the curve towards Lowton Jn.

Great to hear!

Any more progress around the Chat Moss area?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I noted today that a few more masts are now up between the Castlefield Viaduct and Ordsall Lane Junction.

Still a small area of Chat Moss without masts, but most are up now.

 

[Green Lane]

I happened to be in the area, so I nipped in to Patricroft station yesterday for a few minutes.

Not exactly breaking news that these structures are now in place, but I thought I'd post my pics anyway in case they're of interest to anyone.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I happened to be in the area, so I nipped in to Patricroft station yesterday for a few minutes.

Not exactly breaking news that these structures are now in place, but I thought I'd post my pics anyway in case they're of interest to anyone.

On that first pic you can just see a couple of what look like aerials on the cross-girder.
I've noticed them on quite a few structures.
Anybody know what are they for?

 

[Nym]

Oh nice, didn't realise we're getting Autotransformers, or so it appears...

Are we?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On that first pic you can just see a couple of what look like aerials on the cross-girder.
I've noticed them on quite a few structures.
Anybody know what are they for?

You mean the insulators pointing to the left or the two square rings of steel around and about 300mm below them?