Police entrapment

[alanf]

I just want peoples opinions to an incident on Saturday night. 2 friends were travelling home from the DRS open day on the eastbound A69 when they caught up with a black Audi doing 70 in the outside lane.They sat behind it and it made no attempt to move so my mate flashed his lights. The only response was the back of the Audi lit up an array of blue lights. My mate 5hit himself and pulled into lane one and sat at 70 as well. Other cars caught up and got the same treatment until someone in a rangerover came along and undertook the Audi and the inevitable happened.My mate the passenger seems to think the Audi was sat there for about 20 miles so allowing for not actually counting the miles i think its safe to say at least 10 miles. He actually pulled the rangerover near the A1 junction. to me this is just total entrapment and we had a chat in our local last night and every one of us agreed thats 8 of us and my future son in law agreed tonight as well. The 2 mates are both signalmen so they are not just a pair of daft young lads who made it up they are responsible adults. Over to you lot

 

[HST Power]

So the Audi was an unmarked Police car? Just checking I've understood.

 

[Antman]

I'd make a complaint to the force in question and see how they try and justify such actions

 

[starrymarkb]

If he's doing 70 you shouldn't be overtaking him - or flashing lights or undertaking

 

[jon0844]

Even trained traffic police can drive like idiots and hog lanes, but they have the upper hand at the end of the day. I doubt you'd get anywhere by pointing out that you should keep left unless overtaking!

 

[Zoidberg]

If he's doing 70 you shouldn't be overtaking him - or flashing lights or undertaking

Not sure plod should sit in the outside lane at 70 if inner lanes are clear. They (lanes) seem to have been from what was said in the opening post.

If there was a reason to prevent traffic proceeding further ahead in that lane then I think that plod should have had his/her warning lights illuminated to indicate a problem.

 

[deltic]

"entrapment is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit"

The police by driving at 70mph were preventing drivers from speeding - however one person decided to still speed and did so by undertaking thereby breaking two rules of the road - not sure how you can call that entrapment.

However, if the police were themselves breaking the law by driving on the outside lane when the inside lane was free they may find that the courts take a dim view of such behaviour.

 

[HST Power]

To be honest I don't see how it was entrapment. He was doing the speed limit and he was ensuring the rest of the road did the same. Now the Courts may indeed take a dim view of the officer taking up the outside lane, but why did the Range Rover try to undertake? Why would you do that? That's just stupidity. I don't drive, and I've been in vehicles slaughtering the speed limit, so I can't really lecture on the rights and wrongs of the case in hand, but undertaking a Police car that was doing the limit? Is it any wonder he got stopped?

 

[Crossover]

...but overtaking a Police car that was doing the limit? Is it any wonder he got stopped?

Undertaking - and that sounds like the problem

Sounds a bit sneaky by the force, either way.

My cynical side, however, does wonder if it really was the police...

 

[HST Power]

Undertaking - and that sounds like the problem

My cynical side, however, does wonder if it really was the police...

Post corrected.

Did the driver not get pulled over though?

 

[Crossover]

Post corrected.

Did the driver not get pulled over though?

If you were being followed with blues, then I'm sure you'd pull over too.

To be honest, I'm sure the police could justifiably pull some over who was sat on their tail and flashing their lights, so I do wonder if it was someone just messing around...

 

[SteamPower]

Whether it was or wasn't entrapment is irrelevant. The primary offence is speeding which the driver in question would have been doing anyway.

 

[alanf]

Aparently you can undertake if it is safe to do so. Bearing in mind the new law that came into force last week surely the police car was breaking the law.If he sat in the inside lane and got overtook then its tough look if you get pulled. You take your chances. Another thing the police are the law they are not above it. Personally i think it stinks and gives the police a bad name. I dont dislike them and in fairness my mother in law who has alzeimers went for a bus ride in the winter and Cleveland police had the helicopter up within 10 minutes of us ringing (we didnt know she was on the bus) It was only when stagecoach got involved that they found her due to her buspass
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
He wasnt following anyone he was in front and just waiting for someone to take the bait

 

[Roverman]

This reminds me of an incident I heard of in the West Midlands about 6 years ago. A Senior Fire Officer was driving home from work one evening when he witnessed a black saloon car driving like a complete moron; undertaking, tailgating, driving at a speed totally unsuitable for the road conditions. Well this person decided (rightly or wrongly) to give a quick flash of the 'blues and twos' fitted to the vehicle as an attempt to make the moron(s) in the black saloon car behave. Well this seemed to only inflame the situation.

The black saloon was an unmarked police car which stopped immediately and pulled over the Fire Officer, 4 plain clothes officers got out and read him the riot act. He commented on their driving and was arrested and charged with misuse of emergency lights. The police force then contacted the chief fire officer and pushed for his dismissal from the Brigade. His claims that they were driving like a moron were merely rubbished by the 3 passengers who turned witnesses for their colleague.

Despite robust protestations from other colleagues, the FBU etc, the long serving officer was summarily dismissed, I know this because my father was one of the officers who provided a character statement for him.

So sadly I can totally believe that Geordie Force (or whatever it is up there) decide to play silly b*****s, no doubt due to the introduction of a new law just last week meaning they can take more money off us hardworking drivers.

 

[TheEdge]

I doubt that it is entrapment. The speed limit on a UK motorway is 70mph. Therefore any car, police or not, can happily drive in lane 3 at 70mph and its not breaking the law. The range rover obviously was doing more than 70mph if it caught up with the police car, there is offence one, speeding and then undertaking is another.

Had the police car been doing 45mph in lane 3 then jumped on someone undertaking it, that would probably be closer to entrapment.

 

[Eagle]

I doubt that it is entrapment. The speed limit on a UK motorway is 70mph. Therefore any car, police or not, can happily drive in lane 3 at 70mph and its not breaking the law.

If other lanes are clear then that is lane hogging. Which in England and Wales is now punishable by a £100 spot fine.

 

[alanf]

I suggest you sit on a motorway in lane 3 at 70 in front of a traffic car and see how you get on. Im not having a go at you but i think you would be looking at £80 and 3 points at least
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just read eagles post. Sorry its £100

 

[Trog]

Not entrapment but setting a very poor example to other road users.

Judges, Police and others charged with enforcing the law should lead by example.

 

[TheEdge]

If other lanes are clear then that is lane hogging. Which in England and Wales is now punishable by a £100 spot fine.

While I accept this (this would be more a legal challenge kind of thing) surely travelling at 70 in lane 3 isn't lane hogging, no one should be doing more than 70 so you are technically not inconveniencing anyone.

I feel a test case...

 

[boing_uk]

Thing is, enforcement rarely starts at anything above 75, and ACPO guidelines are for 79, unless the manner of driving is a cause for concern - whatever speed they are driving it.

Overtaking on the near side is not a specific offence, but depending on the manner in which it is carried out *may* be regarded as driving without due care.

One of the reasons I will be having all-round cameras fitted to my vehicle when I land in my new home country in a couple of years time!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Apparently you can undertake if it is safe to do so.

But not at a speed in excess of 70mph, whether it is safe to do so or not.

 

[507 001]

If other lanes are clear then that is lane hogging. Which in England and Wales is now punishable by a £100 spot fine.

While I accept this (this would be more a legal challenge kind of thing) surely travelling at 70 in lane 3 isn't lane hogging, no one should be doing more than 70 so you are technically not inconveniencing anyone.

I feel a test case...

It is lane hogging. If the other 2 lanes are clear then you shouldn't be in lane 3. Full stop.

Not only is it completely pointless, it's also causing an obstruction to emergency vehicles etc, who in my experience go straight for lane 3.

 

[Johnuk123]

To be honest coming up behind an Audi doing a steady 70 in the outside lane should sound alarm bells to anybody who considers themselves a knowledgeable driver.
This tactic is not entrapment and has been used for many many years.

Police forces use varied unmarked vehicles but an Audi is a very popular one, long gone is the standard white Omega.

At least one of the occupants of such vehicles should be in uniform.

They are quite easy to spot as things are missing and certain things are different, anybody who is determined to break the law should do a bit of research.

 

[jon0844]

While I accept this (this would be more a legal challenge kind of thing) surely travelling at 70 in lane 3 isn't lane hogging, no one should be doing more than 70 so you are technically not inconveniencing anyone.

I feel a test case...

No need. You keep left unless overtaking, so if there's nothing in lane 1 or 2, it's hogging. Plain and simple.

 

[talltim]

To be honest coming up behind an Audi doing a steady 70 in the outside lane should sound alarm bells to anybody who considers themselves a knowledgeable driver.

.

Yeah, it's like coming upon a Mercedes Sprinter doing less than 90, definately something fishy

 

[michael769]

The incident described is not entrapment - which is something quite different from this.

However taking the description of events at face value I too would be inclined to make a formal written complaint to the force in question concerning the driving of the police vehicle.

Police driving guidelines make it very clear that officers driving is expected to beyond reproach and at first glance this fall short of that requirement. If they wished to discourage vehicles from exceeding the limit they should have done so by using their matrix sign to identify them selves as police officers, not by breaching The Highway Code

 

[breadfan]

Calling crimestoppers with the details of the Audi's actions and reg number could cause the driver some embarrassment.

 

[TheEdge]

Police forces use varied unmarked vehicles but an Audi is a very popular one, long gone is the standard white Omega.

Skoda Octavia vRS's are another very popular one. Big enough to fit all the equipment plus a member of the criminal classes in the back if needed, very unassuming car but go like excrement of a shovel when they are pushed.

 

[jon0844]

Certainly seem like better value for money than the BMWs and Audis some forces prefer.

I know it's about residual values, but the Skoda will be a LOT cheaper in the first place.

I've always thought that VAG made good cars, but the best value was always from the Skoda and Seat variants.

 

[185]

If he's doing 70 you shouldn't be overtaking him - or flashing lights or undertaking

Correct. Maybe this is a form of entrapment, albeit perfectly legal and understandable - aimed at 'entrapping' those aggressive motorists who cause no end of incidents on our motorway network due to impatience and selfishness.

National Express used to be a great job 15 years ago, but the roads have changed so much in such a short time. Sticking with rails now.