New Deep tube trains for Piccadilly line.

[Rational Plan]

Some interesting articles in Modern Rail this month. Two relevant to London are the new tube for London.

It turns out that while TFL were broadly happy with financial settlement, it was not what they were hoping for a few years ago. As a consequence the deep tube project will take longer to complete.

The priority here is new trains for the Piccadilly line with the last new train delivered by 2023.

The new train will be much more radical than some thought. It will have no cab and be driverless. A driver will be on board though pretty much like a DLR captains.





The train will be articulated with bogies shared between carriages. Thereby reducing heat and therefore allowing aircooling to be introduced.

TFL says it has discovered that the Bakerloo line trains can be given an overhaul and so the Central line and Bakerloo line trains can be replaced in 2030.

The 1995 Northern line trains will be retained and 'clone' trains built for the Battersea extension.

 

[D365]

Hmm, that's curious. 72 and 73 stocks are pretty similar (as are most vintage LU trains; though they will be the only remaining after S Stock!). How has it been "discovered" that 72TS can be overhauled and 73TS not? Why replace the Picadilly trains with the new stock and not the Northern fleet? More trains will be needed for the Battersea extension and line split; will it really be feasible to build more of a design which will be 20 years old? I guess the situation on distribution of this stock depends on whether the Northern and Jubilee frequencies are to be increased further in the future.

Brand-new trains on the Pic would be fun for the tourists though. At least with the 73TS replaced, they could finally be sent over to IoW! These updated "Deep Tube" plans are just as "radical" as I thought though

 

[christopher]

I'm sure the artists impression of the exterior is just a 1995/6ts exterior with a few fancy curves and lights added....

 

[Peter Mugridge]

At least this design has a sensible looking front end - thank goodness they didn't go for the Siemens toilet roll on wheels.

 

[jon0844]

Wow, turn down the lights and that would make a great lapdance venue...

 

[glbotu]

We really are moving into the world of Star Trek...........with lots of lens flare everywhere..........

 

[jon0844]

You know the best thing about that photo? It won't look anything like that when built. Well, besides having seats, doors, lights and grab rails..

Sure, a mock up might be built and shown somewhere (as TfL did with the S Stock at Euston, and the 09 stock elsewhere) and following feedback from the public, it will all change. While this is just one bit of one carriage, I hope they remember to include spaces by the doors for luggage!

I sometimes wonder who these designers are trying to impress? I mean, surely they could have come up with a wonderful design but then used the correct colour schemes and seat textures?

 

[Harpers Tate]

Looks like a tube train to me.

 

[joeykins82]

Looks like the intended luggage storage is in the gap beneath the suspended seats to me

 

[jon0844]

Looks like the intended luggage storage is in the gap beneath the suspended seats to me

That would be impossible in practice. Not least the fact that bags are so big these days, but you have to assume there will be people you don't know sitting on them who won't much like being asked to move, and then kick back on your solid case.

Fact: Suitcases will just end up blocking the doors.

I do expect there will be parts of the train set up for wheelchairs and buggies, but think it needs room for luggage as we have now. To be honest, the current layout is pretty good and the main reason for upgrading must be down to the age of the current stock and the need for modern mechanics and technology.

 

[joeykins82]

One reason why the Picc might get new stock sooner rather than later is that the Piccadilly line shares track with the District and Met lines in the west; with the SSR signalling upgrade due to complete in 2018, presumably to make the most of the new signalling system the Piccadilly line trains will need to be compatible and/or the Piccadilly line signalling will need to integrate with the SSR system. Otherwise there'll be non-ATO trains running on an ATO network.

 

[D365]

One reason why the Picc might get new stock sooner rather than later is that the Piccadilly line shares track with the District and Met lines in the west; with the SSR signalling upgrade due to complete in 2018, presumably to make the most of the new signalling system the Piccadilly line trains will need to be compatible and/or the Piccadilly line signalling will need to integrate with the SSR system. Otherwise there'll be non-ATO trains running on an ATO network.

A fair enough reason; the operating overlap between SSR and Deep lines must be quite a challenge.

 

[joeykins82]

Well it's only the Piccadilly line that interacts with the SSR (at least in terms of LU, obviously there's the shared LO section to Richmond, Chiltern & Met and also occasional SWT between Wimbledon & Putney). I'd be very interested to know whether the SSR signalling upgrade is designed so that the future Piccadilly line signalling upgrade will be an extension of the SSR system or isolated in some way.

 

[JamesRowden]

If the Bakerloo line capacity is increased and/or it is extended to Hayes (Kent) I expect that it will need more stock. Perhaps some of the Piccadilly line stock would be transfered to the Bakerloo line.

 

[joeykins82]

What's happened to the ex Victoria line stock? Could that be converted to be compatible with the Bakerloo stock easier than the 1973?

 

[anthony263]

What's happened to the ex Victoria line stock? Could that be converted to be compatible with the Bakerloo stock easier than the 1973?

Well some parts from the 1967 stock have been used on the 1972 stock. I have seen a few with light blue grab polls.

I wouldnt be too surprised if a few of the 1973 stock did end up on the Baerklooo line perhaps replacing the oldest examples of the 1972 stock.

That said some of the 1973 stock will more than likely end up on the Isle of wight surprised non of the 1967 stock were overhauled/refurbished and sent over there.

 

[D365]

Well it's only the Piccadilly line that interacts with the SSR (at least in terms of LU, obviously there's the shared LO section to Richmond, Chiltern & Met and also occasional SWT between Wimbledon & Putney). I'd be very interested to know whether the SSR signalling upgrade is designed so that the future Piccadilly line signalling upgrade will be an extension of the SSR system or isolated in some way.

How about the future Croxley Rail Link where the Met will join the Watford DC at W. High Street and Junction? Signalling and third/fourth rail electrification interface, does any work need to be done? Perhaps this would belong better in the dedicated thread, unless the answer can be brief.

If the Bakerloo line capacity is increased and/or it is extended to Hayes (Kent) I expect that it will need more stock. Perhaps some of the Piccadilly line stock would be transfered to the Bakerloo line.

What's happened to the ex Victoria line stock? Could that be converted to be compatible with the Bakerloo stock easier than the 1973?

I hear the ex-Vic 72 Mk1s still exist in storage somewhere. Won't be too easy to press them back into service by that time, perhaps it would be easier to replace the entire fleet with new build or cascaded 95TS from one half of a split Northern line, say. Either would be easier than using the (just as old by then) 73TS which features among various differences, longer carriages.

 

[joeykins82]

I think it's more likely that the cost of a big stock order would be factored in to the cost of extending the Bakerloo line through to connect to Hayes (assuming that happens eventually); by the time it's done the trains will likely be 45 years old or more anyway!

 

[Dstock7080]

One reason why the Picc might get new stock sooner rather than later is that the Piccadilly line shares track with the District and Met lines in the west; with the SSR signalling upgrade due to complete in 2018, presumably to make the most of the new signalling system the Piccadilly line trains will need to be compatible and/or the Piccadilly line signalling will need to integrate with the SSR system. Otherwise there'll be non-ATO trains running on an ATO network.

'73 Stock are due to start being fitted with in-cab signalling displays from mid-2014 ready for the first section of dual operation.
This was initially to be Rayners-UXB but the SSR migration areas have changed somewhat recently.
Lineside signals will be removed under SSR ATO.

 

[joeykins82]

Great, thanks for that

 

[tranzitjim]

Be great to see one standard design for 'all deep tube lines' other than the Victorian Line. sad to see these plans would not include that. None the less, it is a start. Perhaps once they have done enough to replace 1972 and 1973 stocks, they may then decide it is time for 1992 stock to go too.

Having said that, could they not have the Northern line operate with a combination of existing 1995 stock and the new stock too?

QUESTIONS,

Q1: would the sum of 1992 stock on Central and Waterloo lines be enough to cater for the proposed Northern line expansion?

If so, they could put all 1992 stock onto the Northern line, and 1995 stock onto central, and the new stock on Waterloo - City?

Q2: Are 1995 and 1996 stocks similar?

Both are Alsom built, and do look similar. Would it therefore be reasonable to combine all 1995 and 1996 into one fleet?

 

[Dstock7080]

Q1: would the sum of 1992 stock on Central and Waterloo lines be enough to cater for the proposed Northern line expansion?
If so, they could put all 1992 stock onto the Northern line, and 1995 stock onto central, and the new stock on Waterloo - City?

There are 85x 8-'92 on Central, 5x 4-'92 on W&C, there are 106x 6-'95 on Northern.
The '92 Stock is going, it will not be moving Lines.

Q2: Are 1995 and 1996 stocks similar?
Both are Alsom built, and do look similar. Would it therefore be reasonable to combine all 1995 and 1996 into one fleet?

- They are different, the '95s are very slightly smaller at the crown of the roof for Northern tunnels.
- '95s are 6-car, '96s 7-car.
- different traction motors (although both AC).
- '95s have IGBT drive, '96s GTO drive.
- different compressors, '95 Westinghouse RCS single stage, direct drive rotary screw. '96 Westinghouse HRS two stage, direct drive two cylinder.


At a recent talk to LURS about the Battersea extension, the project team require 6-extra trains which would cope with the later branch-split. The suggestion/hope from them, was for a new fleet for the Northern, with the '95s displaced to the Piccadilly.
The '73 Stock have not been gauged for Bakerloo, Central, Northern, Victoria.

 

[announcements]

Why is it LUL love making the train interiors blue for every line but the Piccadilly? I'm not a fan of this maroon colour they're using for the artist's impression - hopefully this will change!

 

[Mojo]

Why is it LUL love making the train interiors blue for every line but the Piccadilly? I'm not a fan of this maroon colour they're using for the artist's impression - hopefully this will change!

Looking in detail at the line diagrams they appear to be showing the Bakerloo line!

 

[Rational Plan]

There are 85x 8-'92 on Central, 5x 4-'92 on W&C, there are 106x 6-'95 on Northern.
The '92 Stock is going, it will not be moving Lines.

- They are different, the '95s are very slightly smaller at the crown of the roof for Northern tunnels.
- '95s are 6-car, '96s 7-car.
- different traction motors (although both AC).
- '95s have IGBT drive, '96s GTO drive.
- different compressors, '95 Westinghouse RCS single stage, direct drive rotary screw. '96 Westinghouse HRS two stage, direct drive two cylinder.


At a recent talk to LURS about the Battersea extension, the project team require 6-extra trains which would cope with the later branch-split. The suggestion/hope from them, was for a new fleet for the Northern, with the '95s displaced to the Piccadilly.
The '73 Stock have not been gauged for Bakerloo, Central, Northern, Victoria.

Modern rail seemed to imply that the Northern Line Stock is staying and the extension will get some Northern 'Clone' Stock.

 

[Nym]

What's happened to the ex Victoria line stock? Could that be converted to be compatible with the Bakerloo stock easier than the 1973?

It's very difficult to convert 1967 to 1972TS, they're not as similar as many people perceive, especially since the MkIs have been converted to the standard of the MkIIs...

I also dowbt that this whole driverless thing will get very far, especially once it starts going anywhere near Network Rail for the Bakerloo Line, it would need to be able to run under the LUL signalling system and ERTMS/ETCS, unless the Bakerloo is dual signalled; with a changeover just south of Queens Park.

 

[announcements]

Looking in detail at the line diagrams they appear to be showing the Bakerloo line!

Well spotted! Well that interior makes sense now, although having said that I've been led to believe by TfL officials that LUL now prefer corporate identity as opposed to line identity, so you'd expect the colour scheme for the Bakerloo to be blue and red rather than maroon/brown. In fact, if the Bakerloo line isn't to receive new stock until 2030 then I'm surprised the artist's impression has picked that line!

 

[tranzitjim]

How many tunnel sizes are there for the deep tube lines?

There is the Victoria line, which is the widest.

Is Northern line the shortest in height?

 

[Mikey C]

Hmm, the 72s will be ancient by the time they are replaced, over 55 years old! Their refurbishment is also to a much lower standard than the 73s, which have end windows, more modern interiors etc, and were more advanced trains in the first place.

Can the 73s operate on the Bakerloo, as from memory there are some rather tight bends, and the longer carriages might stick out too much?

 

[Nym]

Hmm, the 72s will be ancient by the time they are replaced, over 55 years old! Their refurbishment is also to a much lower standard than the 73s, which have end windows, more modern interiors etc, and were more advanced trains in the first place.

Can the 73s operate on the Bakerloo, as from memory there are some rather tight bends, and the longer carriages might stick out too much?

There are significant concerns with the curves on the Bakerloo Line and fitting 1973 stock down the pipes...

I honestly don't think they'll fit, there are some very tight curves in and out of London Road...