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TheGrandWazoo

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Are any of the Arriva services concerned commercial?


All but the 585 are commercial, I believe. Not an entire surprise as Arriva have lost so much work such as town services, Borth, Ynyslas, and more that the depot just isn't sustainable.

The odd one is Dolgellau; could see the depot going as it now has only 3 vehicles but thought an out base might be opened for the X94.

You wonder about Pwllheli and its future. Sad day; expect Lloyds and Mid Wales to grab much of the work at Aber and Dol
 
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Teflon Lettuce

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The Aberystwyth to Cardiff servie operated by Coach Travel wales is certainly an express servce since it doesnt stop at all the little villiages and stops along the route between Aberystwyth and Swansea

anthony263 service 701 is a limited stop service... it stops at ALL stops between aberystwyth and carmarthen, then stops at cross hands, fforest fach, swansea rail stn and bus stn, port talbot bus stn, bridgend macarthur glen, leckwith asda, cardiff st marys st and cardiff bay
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
tachos? If that's a joke, I don't get it? If it's otherwise, I have no clue what that means.

tachographs... the spy in the cab
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So arriva have announced they are pulling off the 20 route 2 days after changing the timetable so that it runs 15 mins ahead of the 701...

can we assume that this move was purely a wrecking manouvre designed to try and ruin the profitability of the 701 so that it also gets cancelled...

all on the basis of "we don't want the route so why should anyone have it"?
 

Rhydgaled

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tachographs... the spy in the cab
Which we have now established. However, I still don't understand why a timetable split has been introduced now when the tachograph rules have been arround for a while. Any other possible explanations?

So arriva have announced they are pulling off the 20 route 2 days after changing the timetable so that it runs 15 mins ahead of the 701...

can we assume that this move was purely a wrecking manouvre designed to try and ruin the profitability of the 701 so that it also gets cancelled...

all on the basis of "we don't want the route so why should anyone have it"?
They changed the 40 and 50 services too. A last ditich attempt to make the services pay and save the depot perhaps? Or timetable changes planned locally before head office decided enough was enough?

expect Lloyds and Mid Wales to grab much of the work at Aber and Dol
What about Lewis Coaches of Llanrhystud (who used to have the Sunday service 550 I believe) for the Carmarthen/New Quay routes, or somebody with a Carmarthen base (like Morris Travel or perhaps First if they reopen their apparently mothballed depot) on Aberystwyth - Carmarthen. Joint operations such as the Richards Bros / Morris Travel co-operation on the 460 service, to allow later and earlier services with less dead-mileage, could be useful on the Carmarthen route in particular.

I wonder if the Arriva Aberystwyth depot will be mothballed or if it will be sold to another operator.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Which we have now established. However, I still don't understand why a timetable split has been introduced now when the tachograph rules have been arround for a while. Any other possible explanations?

They changed the 40 and 50 services too. A last ditich attempt to make the services pay and save the depot perhaps? Or timetable changes planned locally before head office decided enough was enough?

What about Lewis Coaches of Llanrhystud (who used to have the Sunday service 550 I believe) for the Carmarthen/New Quay routes, or somebody with a Carmarthen base (like Morris Travel or perhaps First if they reopen their apparently mothballed depot) on Aberystwyth - Carmarthen. Joint operations such as the Richards Bros / Morris Travel co-operation on the 460 service, to allow later and earlier services with less dead-mileage, could be useful on the Carmarthen route in particular.

I wonder if the Arriva Aberystwyth depot will be mothballed or if it will be sold to another operator.


The change and splitting might be so that they DON'T have to operate on EU rules and can instead operate on UK Domestic?

As for the depot, it's most likely to be sold for redevelopment. Quite a sizeable site and Arriva will be looking to get the maximum money for the site. Appreciate that Lloyds bought the depot at Mach but British Bus did try to sell it in the 1990's but couldn't, and it is a lot smaller.

As for who might take up the services, would guess that Mid Wales will be best placed to get the 585.

For the X94, that could be a number of interested parties. GHA operate the Sunday service, though Lloyds might be better placed with their existing operations around Dolgellau.

The main route (20/40/50) that I guess you're most interested in may most likely interest Mid Wales or possibly Richards Bros and/or Morris. I think you can discount First reopening Carmarthen - it's the same problem as Arriva in that there are not enough to justify the cost of a depot, and they've already handed it in once anyway.

Sad to see a company in Crosville that had depots at New Quay, Newcastle Emlyn, Aberystwyth, Dolgellau, Aberaeron and Machynlleth, as well as outstations in Barmouth and Llanidloes finally pushed out of mid Wales. However, not a surprise given how isolated Aber had become and the loss of so much work in recent years.
 

anthony263

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This decision by Arriva seems to have caught the WG by surprise.

Anyway Arriva are not the only Operator deciding to close, Gwyn Williams of Lower Tumble have decided to close which is a very great shame as they were a good company.

I do hope the WG can find the funds to launch T1 to replace services 20/40.
 

Rhydgaled

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The change and splitting might be so that they DON'T have to operate on EU rules and can instead operate on UK Domestic?
But, it sounds like the EU rules have been around for a while, so why have they only just changed the timetable to allow them to use domestic UK rules? Plus, you said the timetable doesn't have to show that it is registered as two seperate services to avoid having to apply EU rules:
All of this was retrograde and not at all what the regulations were supposed to deal with. Hence the DoT gave guidance that said the registrations could be split, but the service number retained for each of the sections and that timetables could refer to it being a through service

As for the depot, it's most likely to be sold for redevelopment. Quite a sizeable site and Arriva will be looking to get the maximum money for the site.
It is very usefully suituated as a bus depot though. Someone like Mid Wales Travel might find it useful to cut down on positioning mileage to and from their current depots, if it's on the market and they can afford it.

This decision by Arriva seems to have caught the WG by surprise.
They should never have redeployed those six brand new Tempos.

I do hope the WG can find the funds to launch T1 to replace services 20/40.
I say again, Cardiff Airport: Stand & Deliver. I recently discovered that the annual subsidy is over half the subsidy the TrawsCambria network (X40, X50/550, X32, X94 and 704). I too hope the TC1 will be delivered (with the 6am to 8pm services orriginally promissed too I hope, assuming that refered to first and last through departures), along with an extension of the X50 to Aberystwth every two hours now there's no longer going to be a commertial operation in the way. Oh, and inter-available tickets too. In short, all the things Arriva robbed.
 

anthony263

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I do have some agreement with you Rhydgaled on arriva actions with the Cymru Express network. One mistake was to not run the service 40 via Swansea since they could have attracted some passengers who would have normally used the Greyhound/National expres to travel from Swansea to Cardiff.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Which we have now established. However, I still don't understand why a timetable split has been introduced now when the tachograph rules have been arround for a while. Any other possible explanations?

They changed the 40 and 50 services too. A last ditich attempt to make the services pay and save the depot perhaps? Or timetable changes planned locally before head office decided enough was enough?

What about Lewis Coaches of Llanrhystud (who used to have the Sunday service 550 I believe) for the Carmarthen/New Quay routes, or somebody with a Carmarthen base (like Morris Travel or perhaps First if they reopen their apparently mothballed depot) on Aberystwyth - Carmarthen. Joint operations such as the Richards Bros / Morris Travel co-operation on the 460 service, to allow later and earlier services with less dead-mileage, could be useful on the Carmarthen route in particular.

I wonder if the Arriva Aberystwyth depot will be mothballed or if it will be sold to another operator.

seeing as though arriva have just announced the closure TWO days after the timetable changes I stand by my comment that the changes to service 20 were designed deliberately to destabilise the 701... a wrecking operation

Arriva's services in aber should be boycotted whenever an alternative is on offer...

further if you look at their facebook page they will only say they cannot say anymore than their press release AT THE MOMENT... seems to me that they are trying to demand money with menaces from the county councils...
 

TheGrandWazoo

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seeing as though arriva have just announced the closure TWO days after the timetable changes I stand by my comment that the changes to service 20 were designed deliberately to destabilise the 701... a wrecking operation

Arriva's services in aber should be boycotted whenever an alternative is on offer...

further if you look at their facebook page they will only say they cannot say anymore than their press release AT THE MOMENT... seems to me that they are trying to demand money with menaces from the county councils...

What tripe! Arriva are pulling out. The reason they won't say anything more is that the staff are under consultation; they can't do anything to pre-judge the consultation. Nothing to do with the councils. As for a wrecking operation on the 701....perhaps just trying to reduce the losses for the short term.

However, if you want some award winning ignorance, try this story about the timetable changes just enacted

http://www.tivysideadvertiser.co.uk/news/10686745.Concern_over_future_of_long_distance_bus_services/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But, it sounds like the EU rules have been around for a while, so why have they only just changed the timetable to allow them to use domestic UK rules? Plus, you said the timetable doesn't have to show that it is registered as two seperate services to avoid having to apply EU rules:

It is very usefully suituated as a bus depot though. Someone like Mid Wales Travel might find it useful to cut down on positioning mileage to and from their current depots, if it's on the market and they can afford it.

They should never have redeployed those six brand new Tempos.

I say again, Cardiff Airport: Stand & Deliver. I recently discovered that the annual subsidy is over half the subsidy the TrawsCambria network (X40, X50/550, X32, X94 and 704). I too hope the TC1 will be delivered (with the 6am to 8pm services orriginally promissed too I hope, assuming that refered to first and last through departures), along with an extension of the X50 to Aberystwth every two hours now there's no longer going to be a commertial operation in the way. Oh, and inter-available tickets too. In short, all the things Arriva robbed.

I can't believe that I have to explain this...again. They may well have been on EU rules, and now wish to put them on UK Domestic. Why do this? With the withdrawal of the town services, the amount of EU work vs. UK domestic means its difficult to roster. You can't mix and match on the same day! Apart from the Cardiff runs, where a driver is lost all day, then the rest is really domestic work anyway, and the rostering is more efficient. Might help with having a driver or two less required especially if they knew the end was near so no need to recruit anyone. The different service number....don't know.

I don't doubt that a depot in Aber would be a boon to one of the operators. However, the most likely business to capitalise on this is Mid Wales, whose depot is five miles away and has plenty of space to park vehicles. Redevelopment is the most likely option. Dead mileage of that magnitude isn't really an issue, is it?

As for you and your love of old style Tempos..... other vehicle types are available, you know. Perhaps the WG might even get some decent coaches on there or deckers. Works on interurban services in Scotland e.g. Bluebird 10/305 etc - perhaps some nice B12s?
 

Tracky

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It is fair to say that Arrivas overheads will be somewhat higher than their local competitors. Arriva bus drivers earn a decent wage, with good terms and conditions and a union backing. They even have travel perks on Arriva trains.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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It is fair to say that Arrivas overheads will be somewhat higher than their local competitors. Arriva bus drivers earn a decent wage, with good terms and conditions and a union backing. They even have travel perks on Arriva trains.

Travel perks are not really that big a deal but the pay rate and pensions especially will be a significant difference.
 

Rhydgaled

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However, if you want some award winning ignorance, try this story about the timetable changes just enacted

http://www.tivysideadvertiser.co.uk/news/10686745.Concern_over_future_of_long_distance_bus_services/
Interesting photograph. The bus pictured is now with Richards Bros in unbranded TrawsCymru livery. As for refering to the new TrawsCymru Tempos as coaches, tut, tut tut.

I can't believe that I have to explain this...again. They may well have been on EU rules, and now wish to put them on UK Domestic.
That I could understand, but why do their timetables show it is having to change when the EU rules can be avoided without having to show this on the timetable? Add to the fact that Richards Bros did the same thing with X50/550 at the same time (though X50 has the same service number both sides of Aberaeron, a change is shown as required and 550 has a change of service number to/from X50 at Aberaeron now according to the timetable). Why confuse pepole by showing a change is required on the timetable when there is apparently no need to do this to escape the EU rules? Is there any other reason for splitting services?

I don't doubt that a depot in Aber would be a boon to one of the operators. However, the most likely business to capitalise on this is Mid Wales, whose depot is five miles away and has plenty of space to park vehicles. Redevelopment is the most likely option. Dead mileage of that magnitude isn't really an issue, is it?
There's no BSOG for dead-mileage any more is there? I suppose it depends on how often buses have to run that 5 miles, and taking on more work could increase that.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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That I could understand, but why do their timetables show it is having to change when the EU rules can be avoided without having to show this on the timetable? Add to the fact that Richards Bros did the same thing with X50/550 at the same time (though X50 has the same service number both sides of Aberaeron, a change is shown as required and 550 has a change of service number to/from X50 at Aberaeron now according to the timetable). Why confuse pepole by showing a change is required on the timetable when there is apparently no need to do this to escape the EU rules? Is there any other reason for splitting services?

There's no BSOG for dead-mileage any more is there? I suppose it depends on how often buses have to run that 5 miles, and taking on more work could increase that.

As I said before, don't know why the timetable layout/number change. Ask Arriva!

You could try to do the maths on the dead mileage. Assuming each vehicle only has to do one round trip a day (cos why would it do more?), then that will cost about £7k p.a. Work out the PVR x £7k p.a. and does it then pay for a depot (purchase and ongoing upkeep). Probably not.
 

Rhydgaled

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You could try to do the maths on the dead mileage. Assuming each vehicle only has to do one round trip a day (cos why would it do more?), then that will cost about £7k p.a. Work out the PVR x £7k p.a. and does it then pay for a depot (purchase and ongoing upkeep). Probably not.
Why would it do more? Arriva's 40 and 50 services seem to stop outside the depot for driver changes (but do Mid Wales' drivers need to sign on at the depot?) and Richards Bros seem to run buses in and out of their Cardigan depot quite often, but I don't know what for. Simple answer is I don't know how many trips they have to do.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Why would it do more? Arriva's 40 and 50 services seem to stop outside the depot for driver changes (but do Mid Wales' drivers need to sign on at the depot?) and Richards Bros seem to run buses in and out of their Cardigan depot quite often, but I don't know what for. Simple answer is I don't know how many trips they have to do.

If your depot is located close by, such as Park Avenue, then having driver changeovers there isn't a big deal. Same when Arriva's depot in Bangor and LJ were on main routes.

However, many depots are now located away from town centres (often sold for redevelopment) so the usual deal is that the driver does an 11 hr shift (e.g. 0730-1830) and starts/finishes at the depot as does the vehicle. Any driver changeovers are then undertaken in the town centre/bus station.

Where you have all day working (e.g. 0600 to 2330), then you will have the issue of a driver starting at the depot but perhaps finishing in the town centre (or vice versa). With the largest depots, crew shuttles are sometimes employed to get drivers to/from the depot though Aber doesn't get near that sort of size. In other instances, perhaps a route does go near the depot and so it is used to effect changeovers.

I don't know how Mid Wales do this currently for their drivers out on evening work but based on their timetable, it might be something like:

0613 510 P'Coch to Aber to do the 0630 525 to Llanidloes and that the driver does a shift that finishes with the 1525 526 to P'Coch; another driver takes that vehicle out at 16:00 and does the evening local services until the 510 2355 and arriving back at 00:12. Driver changes done and no excessive dead mileage in the middle of the day!
 

anthony263

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Hopefully in teh future perhaps Bryans coaches will add more additional services on route 701 Aberystwyth - Cardiff although they would need to park some vehicles overnight in Cardiff.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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What tripe! Arriva are pulling out. The reason they won't say anything more is that the staff are under consultation; they can't do anything to pre-judge the consultation. Nothing to do with the councils. As for a wrecking operation on the 701....perhaps just trying to reduce the losses for the short term.

However, if you want some award winning ignorance, try this story about the timetable changes just enacted

http://www.tivysideadvertiser.co.uk/news/10686745.Concern_over_future_of_long_distance_bus_services/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I can't believe that I have to explain this...again. They may well have been on EU rules, and now wish to put them on UK Domestic. Why do this? With the withdrawal of the town services, the amount of EU work vs. UK domestic means its difficult to roster. You can't mix and match on the same day! Apart from the Cardiff runs, where a driver is lost all day, then the rest is really domestic work anyway, and the rostering is more efficient. Might help with having a driver or two less required especially if they knew the end was near so no need to recruit anyone. The different service number....don't know.

I don't doubt that a depot in Aber would be a boon to one of the operators. However, the most likely business to capitalise on this is Mid Wales, whose depot is five miles away and has plenty of space to park vehicles. Redevelopment is the most likely option. Dead mileage of that magnitude isn't really an issue, is it?

As for you and your love of old style Tempos..... other vehicle types are available, you know. Perhaps the WG might even get some decent coaches on there or deckers. Works on interurban services in Scotland e.g. Bluebird 10/305 etc - perhaps some nice B12s?
what's tripe?

fact: arriva deregistered service 20 completely 3 months ago

fact: one month later they changed their minds and registered service 20 to run 15 mins ahead of 701 AND rerouted back into swansea

fact: 2 days after new timetable started they announce they are consulting their staff about closing aber depot

fact: if they are consulting their staff now they have been planning the closure for months... they will only "consult" staff once they have fully formulated their plans.

I stand by my previous comments... the changes to service 20 were a deliberate attempt to destabilise the 701. a spiteful trick on the basis of "we don't want it but we'll make sure no-one else has it" a trick that arriva plays throughout ALL it's operations right across the uk
 

TheGrandWazoo

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what's tripe?

fact: arriva deregistered service 20 completely 3 months ago

fact: one month later they changed their minds and registered service 20 to run 15 mins ahead of 701 AND rerouted back into swansea

fact: 2 days after new timetable started they announce they are consulting their staff about closing aber depot

fact: if they are consulting their staff now they have been planning the closure for months... they will only "consult" staff once they have fully formulated their plans.

I stand by my previous comments... the changes to service 20 were a deliberate attempt to destabilise the 701. a spiteful trick on the basis of "we don't want it but we'll make sure no-one else has it" a trick that arriva plays throughout ALL it's operations right across the uk

You can stand by all you want... you're still not correct.

Have a look at what "consultation" actually means in terms of redundancy and/or TUPE. Of course they have planned the closure over the last few months - that's what you do. Consultation means "this is what we're planning to do - we are consulting you and your union to get the best possible outcome in terms of either redundancy, relocation or redeployment".

As for Arriva doing that all over the UK - examples please?? Didn't do it in Scotland, and in North East, only in response to very provocative actions from GNE (X1)
 

radamfi

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Arriva did what they are doing in Wales in Surrey and West Sussex back in around 2001. They announced a complete withdrawal of commercial services giving 56 days notice. Metrobus then registered a replacement network and turned it around dramatically.
 

anthony263

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Arriva did what they are doing in Wales in Surrey and West Sussex back in around 2001. They announced a complete withdrawal of commercial services giving 56 days notice. Metrobus then registered a replacement network and turned it around dramatically.

I wonder if First might be tempted to move into Aberytsywth since there is a small depot in Carmarthen.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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You can stand by all you want... you're still not correct.

Have a look at what "consultation" actually means in terms of redundancy and/or TUPE. Of course they have planned the closure over the last few months - that's what you do. Consultation means "this is what we're planning to do - we are consulting you and your union to get the best possible outcome in terms of either redundancy, relocation or redeployment".

As for Arriva doing that all over the UK - examples please?? Didn't do it in Scotland, and in North East, only in response to very provocative actions from GNE (X1)

so by your own admittance arriva will close aberystwyth depot no matter what the outcome of the "consultation" therefore by your own argument the re-timing of their service 20 to run just ahead of the 701 is a deliberate attempt to destabilise that service.

as for examples... Luton... whereby they registered copy cat routes over Lutonians network forcing Lutonian to sell out to them... the MMC found that they had used predatory and unfair tactics to run Lutonian off the road and forced them to sell it on.... AND undertake not to compete with the new owner for 2 years.

question is why are you trying to defend the indefensible??
 

TheGrandWazoo

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so by your own admittance arriva will close aberystwyth depot no matter what the outcome of the "consultation" therefore by your own argument the re-timing of their service 20 to run just ahead of the 701 is a deliberate attempt to destabilise that service.

as for examples... Luton... whereby they registered copy cat routes over Lutonians network forcing Lutonian to sell out to them... the MMC found that they had used predatory and unfair tactics to run Lutonian off the road and forced them to sell it on.... AND undertake not to compete with the new owner for 2 years.

question is why are you trying to defend the indefensible??

Yes, by own admittance. I don't work for Arriva but hey, I don't need to. It's patently obvious that the depot is closing. That is what is meant by consultation - getting the best available outcome for the staff affected. I might draw the conclusion that as you've not researched what "consultation" in an employment law context, I should treat what you say generally with caution?

To draw some sort of parallel with Lutonian is laughable. Lutonian went into Luton and Dunstable and competed with Arriva. Were they supposed to sit on their hands? No, they responded, as per most other operators. In fact, compared to Stagecoach, Arriva have had very few transgressions with the MMC or OFT. In fact, in the North East, they've shown a lot of restraint in spite of Go Ahead registering competitive services or additional routes. In fact, the latest example is the Newcastle to Hexham service (685) where they still haven't reacted despite being provoked.

If you're talking about areas where Arriva have pulled out, did they try a scorched earth policy in Crawley? No! How about when they pulled out of North Yorkshire after closing Richmond and Stokesley depots? No! Or Alnwick, or Crewe, or Macclesfield, or anywhere else where they've closed a depot and either reduced or removed their services locally.

Why am I defending the indefensible? Because I've worked for firms before (albeit not Arriva) and what you're saying is a rather biased standpoint. Of course, it's fine for Mid Wales or Lloyds to compete with Arriva? Same as Padarn Bus in North Wales?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ha ha ha .........sorry, one of the most amusing comments I've read.

Robert

.
.

Might not agree with the above comments text, but I do agree that the idea of First moving into Aber is mighty unlikely. More chance of First leaving Haverfordwest than an extension into more thin territory
 
Last edited:

anthony263

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I meant First looking at registering a service to Aberystwyth from Carmarthen although maybe not as frequent as the Arriva service
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Yes, by own admittance. I don't work for Arriva but hey, I don't need to. It's patently obvious that the depot is closing. That is what is meant by consultation - getting the best available outcome for the staff affected.

To draw some sort of parallel with Lutonian is laughable. Lutonian went into Luton and Dunstable and competed with Arriva. Were they supposed to sit on their hands? No, they responded, as per most other operators. In fact, compared to Stagecoach, Arriva have had very few transgressions with the MMC or OFT.

In fact, in the North East, they've shown a lot of restraint in spite of Go Ahead registering competitive services or additional routes. In fact, the latest example is the Newcastle to Hexham service (685) where they still haven't reacted despite being provoked.

If you're talking about areas where Arriva have pulled out, did they try a scorched earth policy in Crawley? No! How about when they pulled out of North Yorkshire after closing Richmond and Stokesley depots? No!

Why am I defending the indefensible? Because I've worked for firms before (albeit not Arriva) and what you're saying is a rather biased standpoint. Of course, it's fine for Mid Wales or Lloyds to compete with Arriva? Same as Padarn Bus in North Wales?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Might not agree with the above comments text, but I do agree that the idea of First moving into Aber is mighty unlikely. More chance of First leaving Haverfordwest than an extension into more thin territory

lets not confuse propaganda for facts...

in the case of lutonian it started operations by providing a town centre shuttle in luton... over the years it developed by providing new links using different roads to the services already provided and also by taking up services which Luton & District (arriva's predecessor) had abandoned... it was arriva who were the aggressors by registering exact copies of timetables and routes under the challenger brand... hence the MMC's decision

in the case of the situation in the north east... there was nothing predatory about Go North East's move into Hexham... it was an agreement between arriva and Go ahead... arriva sold it's hexham operations and garage to go ahead in return for go-ahead's ex- OK operations in bishop aukland. obviously arriva thought it had got the rough end of the deal and has now decided to operate in hexham again

as for scorched earth policy in Crawley... what else can you call it if Arriva deregistered the whole operation as unprofitable leaving crawley without a bus service... strange how metrobus (another go ahead company) moved straight in and turned the operation around and is GROWING the network.

and yes it is fine for companies to compete with each other.... that was the point of deregulation... however the large groups are the first to cry foul when smaller operators register exact copies of their services or run 10 mins ahead of them

perhaps if arriva had addressed the issues as to why passengers prefer to use their competitors rather than trying to run them off the road they might have been more successful in aber
 

TheGrandWazoo

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lets not confuse propaganda for facts...

in the case of lutonian it started operations by providing a town centre shuttle in luton... over the years it developed by providing new links using different roads to the services already provided and also by taking up services which Luton & District (arriva's predecessor) had abandoned... it was arriva who were the aggressors by registering exact copies of timetables and routes under the challenger brand... hence the MMC's decision

in the case of the situation in the north east... there was nothing predatory about Go North East's move into Hexham... it was an agreement between arriva and Go ahead... arriva sold it's hexham operations and garage to go ahead in return for go-ahead's ex- OK operations in bishop aukland. obviously arriva thought it had got the rough end of the deal and has now decided to operate in hexham again

as for scorched earth policy in Crawley... what else can you call it if Arriva deregistered the whole operation as unprofitable leaving crawley without a bus service... strange how metrobus (another go ahead company) moved straight in and turned the operation around and is GROWING the network.

and yes it is fine for companies to compete with each other.... that was the point of deregulation... however the large groups are the first to cry foul when smaller operators register exact copies of their services or run 10 mins ahead of them

perhaps if arriva had addressed the issues as to why passengers prefer to use their competitors rather than trying to run them off the road they might have been more successful in aber

How can you get things so wrong? As you're struggling with the facts, let me help :lol:

Arriva swapped its operations at Hexham for those in ASHINGTON. However, as part of the Hexham deal, Arriva retained the Newcastle-Hexham-Carlisle service and continued to operate it. It is this that Go Ahead began services against last month over the eastern part of the route. So when you say "obviously arriva thought it had got the rough end of the deal and has now decided to operate in hexham again" you are wrong. Arriva never left that service, hasn't registered against Go Ahead - in fact, it is GNE who have acted in the way that you are wrongly accusing Arriva of behaving. Obviously!

Also, Arriva purchased outright (no swapping) of the Bishop Auckland operations in a separate deal FOUR YEARS EARLIER!

I'd also point out that Arriva did pull out of Crawley but that was it. No "wrecking" as you would call it. They pulled out and another operator moved in who have made a good job of it. That is it; they didn't then make a load of selective registrations to hamstring anyone coming in or anything else.

In the case of Lutonian, they did pick up services that LDT/Arriva had deregistered etc. No issue with that, but when they began to register over the main routes such as Marsh Farm, then obviously that was going to trigger a reaction!

Apart from that, I doff my hat to your factual accuracy
 

TotallyGravy

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what's tripe?

fact: arriva deregistered service 20 completely 3 months ago

fact: one month later they changed their minds and registered service 20 to run 15 mins ahead of 701 AND rerouted back into swansea

fact: 2 days after new timetable started they announce they are consulting their staff about closing aber depot

fact: if they are consulting their staff now they have been planning the closure for months... they will only "consult" staff once they have fully formulated their plans.

I stand by my previous comments... the changes to service 20 were a deliberate attempt to destabilise the 701. a spiteful trick on the basis of "we don't want it but we'll make sure no-one else has it" a trick that arriva plays throughout ALL it's operations right across the uk

Now, it seems that local operators like Mid Wales Travel and Coach Travel Wales are very keen to be seen as 'hard done by' and as underdogs and victims of the corporate monster that is Arriva - evident from regular local newspaper articles of the last few years, or the continual carping on one company's website about the unfairness of changes to free travel scheme rules, unfair competition from non-local firms, blah, blah, etc.

But is the 701 really so significant that Arriva's planning is going to be based around making some spiteful last attack on it as they retreat from the area? Logically, what company would waste money and resource if they were withdrawing and had nothing to gain? They're a company with a bottom line to consider, not a fly-by-night that can throw money away on grudges.

TeflonLettuce asserts that Arriva recently deregistered the 20 and then reregistered it as some kind of wrecking move. But unless I'm mistaken, nothing in any of the Notices and Proceedings published since June shows an outright deregistration. Arriva registered changes to the timings effective 29 September twice: once appearing in the 20 June N&P and then again in the 15 August N&P, when they also added the previously-mentioned 40c. I can't see that as particularly underhand, any more than I could the deregistration and re-registration of the 701 on consecutive days to transfer it to a different trading entity.

So, it seems that the most recent changes to Arriva's route were planned in early August. We have no way of knowing whether Arriva were set on closing the depot that far back, seeing as the story has only broken now in October. Is it not more likely that they simply made a straightforward change to the timetable for their own commercial benefit (with the unavoidable 56 day lead time), but that these changes were overtaken by events as head office finally lost patience with the numbers not stacking up?

Of course, the change in timing of the 20 and the reinstatement of a Swansea stop presumably was driven by a desire to compete against the 701 - but that's the open market in operation! It's not pretty, but it's legal and entirely logical if that is the time of day the public want to travel. Surely you'd expect Arriva to try and make it pay before throwing in the towel? Especially if there's a likelihood of redundancy consultations where staff would quite rightly question why closure was being considered without any attempt to grow trade?

As for dirty tricks and destabilising moves, just think back to how easily Arriva rolled over to local competitors muscling in on 'their' Aberystwyth town and local routes (e.g. town circular, Penparcau, Borth, Penrhyncoch, Machynlleth). They have no track record in fighting competition effectively locally - there was a short-lived and very poorly-executed attempt to revamp local routes a couple of years back, but that's about it. No attempt to beat the competition in terms of fares, timings or frequency - in fact they quite quickly reduced frequency once Mid Wales Travel started running competing local services.

I obviously don't know what Arriva's real motivations are - but I don't think they have either the nous for, or the interest in, a bus war in Aberystwyth!
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Now, it seems that local operators like Mid Wales Travel and Coach Travel Wales are very keen to be seen as 'hard done by' and as underdogs and victims of the corporate monster that is Arriva - evident from regular local newspaper articles of the last few years, or the continual carping on one company's website about the unfairness of changes to free travel scheme rules, unfair competition from non-local firms, blah, blah, etc.

But is the 701 really so significant that Arriva's planning is going to be based around making some spiteful last attack on it as they retreat from the area? Logically, what company would waste money and resource if they were withdrawing and had nothing to gain? They're a company with a bottom line to consider, not a fly-by-night that can throw money away on grudges.

TeflonLettuce asserts that Arriva recently deregistered the 20 and then reregistered it as some kind of wrecking move. But unless I'm mistaken, nothing in any of the Notices and Proceedings published since June shows an outright deregistration. Arriva registered changes to the timings effective 29 September twice: once appearing in the 20 June N&P and then again in the 15 August N&P, when they also added the previously-mentioned 40c. I can't see that as particularly underhand, any more than I could the deregistration and re-registration of the 701 on consecutive days to transfer it to a different trading entity.

So, it seems that the most recent changes to Arriva's route were planned in early August. We have no way of knowing whether Arriva were set on closing the depot that far back, seeing as the story has only broken now in October. Is it not more likely that they simply made a straightforward change to the timetable for their own commercial benefit (with the unavoidable 56 day lead time), but that these changes were overtaken by events as head office finally lost patience with the numbers not stacking up?

Of course, the change in timing of the 20 and the reinstatement of a Swansea stop presumably was driven by a desire to compete against the 701 - but that's the open market in operation! It's not pretty, but it's legal and entirely logical if that is the time of day the public want to travel. Surely you'd expect Arriva to try and make it pay before throwing in the towel? Especially if there's a likelihood of redundancy consultations where staff would quite rightly question why closure was being considered without any attempt to grow trade?

As for dirty tricks and destabilising moves, just think back to how easily Arriva rolled over to local competitors muscling in on 'their' Aberystwyth town and local routes (e.g. town circular, Penparcau, Borth, Penrhyncoch, Machynlleth). They have no track record in fighting competition effectively locally - there was a short-lived and very poorly-executed attempt to revamp local routes a couple of years back, but that's about it. No attempt to beat the competition in terms of fares, timings or frequency - in fact they quite quickly reduced frequency once Mid Wales Travel started running competing local services.

I obviously don't know what Arriva's real motivations - but I don't think they have either the nous or the interest in a bus war in Aberystwyth!

You may well be right that the local operations/schedulers were doing their bit but then the decision was made by a higher authority to cut their losses.

It is quite funny that Arriva and First are often referred to when talking about crushing smaller operators when, in general, they are the most impotent! Good example of this is in Chippenham in Wiltshire where Faresaver is a notable local bus firm. They compete extensively with First over many Wiltshire services. They don't against Stagecoach - they daren't <D
 

Teflon Lettuce

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I'm not prepared to continue with a debate that is descending into a "your more stupid than I am" debate.

HOWEVER it is evident from here and arriva's own facebook page that their decision has provoked much anger in Ceredigion.

as to their not deregistering their service 20 they admitted as much on july 3rd when an enquiry was made on their facebook page as to whether they had withdrawn service 10... their reply was that they were also withdrawing service 20

Arriva DO have a track record of spiteful pettyminded actions locally...

when they lost the contract to penrhyncoch to mid wales motors they attempted to register an identical service 10 mins before the contracted service.. it is this action which prompted mid wales motors to launch town services in aber

Arriva have also got a reputation of repeatedly changing services between aberystwyth and aberaeron so that richard's bros' service to cardigan no longer connects... usually just after richards bros have changed their service to restore the connections

as to the question as to whether they really saw 701 as a serious threat...

701 has, over the last 3 years moved from a 3 days a week operation... to a daily operation and now a twice daily operation... 701 frequently carries full loads into cardiff... compare this to arriva's service 20 which has been struggling over the same period.

it does seem to me that arriva is alone among the big plc's in having no idea on how to grow their patronage, only managing decline.... even first has some bright spots among its operations...

to go back to luton.... a nice new busway opens so what does arriva do? it reduces services within luton on the day it opens...

look at milton keynes... it takes over a PROFITABLE company which has 95% of mileage within the city... within 5 years that figure is down to approx 60%

I'm sure that if stagecoach or go ahead had taken over crosville wales then the people of aber would have a much better network than we have now
 
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TotallyGravy

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I'm not prepared to continue with a debate that is descending into a "your more stupid than I am" debate.

HOWEVER it is evident from here and arriva's own facebook page that their decision has provoked much anger in Ceredigion.

as to their not deregistering their service 20 they admitted as much on july 3rd when an enquiry was made on their facebook page as to whether they had withdrawn service 10... their reply was that they were also withdrawing service 20

Arriva DO have a track record of spiteful pettyminded actions locally...

when they lost the contract to penrhyncoch to mid wales motors they attempted to register an identical service 10 mins before the contracted service.. it is this action which prompted mid wales motors to launch town services in aber

Arriva have also got a reputation of repeatedly changing services between aberystwyth and aberaeron so that richard's bros' service to cardigan no longer connects... usually just after richards bros have changed their service to restore the connections

as to the question as to whether they really saw 701 as a serious threat...

701 has, over the last 3 years moved from a 3 days a week operation... to a daily operation and now a twice daily operation... 701 frequently carries full loads into cardiff... compare this to arriva's service 20 which has been struggling over the same period.

it does seem to me that arriva is alone among the big plc's in having no idea on how to grow their patronage, only managing decline.... even first has some bright spots among its operations...

to go back to luton.... a nice new busway opens so what does arriva do? it reduces services within luton on the day it opens...

look at milton keynes... it takes over a PROFITABLE company which has 95% of mileage within the city... within 5 years that figure is down to approx 60%

I'm sure that if stagecoach or go ahead had taken over crosville wales then the people of aber would have a much better network than we have now

Well of course people are angry if they're losing their buses. That would be the case whoever the operator was.

I still cannot find any official reference to Arriva's Cardiff service being withdrawn rather than retimed and re-routed. However, if that really is the case, why would it preclude them from changing their mind later?

You have missed the point about whether the 701 was perceived by Arriva as a threat. I agree that it looks like Arriva were gearing up to compete and grab a bigger share of the market, by changing times and calling points to win back market share. What I was trying to get across was that if they were already preparing the shut the depot, as you suggest, they have effectively walked away from the contest already - why would they care about the 701 in that and what real benefit would they gain from its demise? I don't think either its continuation or collapse would keep anybody at Arriva HQ awake at night!

It's a little dramatic to refer to the Penrhyncoch example as "spiteful". If Arriva knew from previous experience that the route was close to profitable, they're entitled to try and run it commercially. In fact, didn't their short-lived route 5 actually run on a different route and offer some extra benefits to passengers over and above the 526? From memory it was diverted to serve Parc-y-Llyn retail park and was also extended past the town bus station to Penglais Campus. That would also give a less paranoid explanation of why it ran earlier: it was timed to match up with lectures and work shifts at the university, so would have to run 10 minutes earlier to ensure it could get people to both the town centre and up the hill to the campus for e.g. a 9am start.

I take the point about the connections at Aberaeron but if Richards Brothers sees no profit in carrying passengers north of Aberaeron for much of the day themselves, why is Arriva obliged to fill the gap in their network? In an ideal world, maybe they would be - but you can't blame them if they find the ability to retime the 40 service when they need to as more commercially valuable than picking up connecting passengers from another route.

I do sound like an Arriva apologist, but that's not really the case. What I'm trying to point out is that competition is legal and customers would be the ultimate decision-makers in any battle between the 10/20/40 and 701. Sure, it's messy and inefficient when two operators fight over one route, as evidenced by years of near-continuous bus route changes around Aberystwyth. But what alternative do you suggest in an unregulated market? A no-competition agreement or a cartel of operators dividing the network up as they see fit, perhaps? That'd be illegal and passengers would lose out as there would be no incentive to innovate, improve service or hold down fares.
 
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