TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Teflon Lettuce]

Well of course people are angry if they're losing their buses. That would be the case whoever the operator was.

I still cannot find any official reference to Arriva's Cardiff service being withdrawn rather than retimed and re-routed. However, if that really is the case, why would it preclude them from changing their mind later?

You have missed the point about whether the 701 was perceived by Arriva as a threat. I agree that it looks like Arriva were gearing up to compete and grab a bigger share of the market, by changing times and calling points to win back market share. What I was trying to get across was that if they were already preparing the shut the depot, as you suggest, they have effectively walked away from the contest already - why would they care about the 701 in that and what real benefit would they gain from its demise? I don't think either its continuation or collapse would keep anybody at Arriva HQ awake at night!

It's a little dramatic to refer to the Penrhyncoch example as "spiteful". If Arriva knew from previous experience that the route was close to profitable, they're entitled to try and run it commercially. In fact, didn't their short-lived route 5 actually run on a different route and offer some extra benefits to passengers over and above the 526? From memory it was diverted to serve Parc-y-Llyn retail park and was also extended past the town bus station to Penglais Campus. That would also give a less paranoid explanation of why it ran earlier: it was timed to match up with lectures and work shifts at the university, so would have to run 10 minutes earlier to ensure it could get people to both the town centre and up the hill to the campus for e.g. a 9am start.

I take the point about the connections at Aberaeron but if Richards Brothers sees no profit in carrying passengers north of Aberaeron for much of the day themselves, why is Arriva obliged to fill the gap in their network? In an ideal world, maybe they would be - but you can't blame them if they find the ability to retime the 40 service when they need to as more commercially valuable than picking up connecting passengers from another route.

I do sound like an Arriva apologist, but that's not really the case. What I'm trying to point out is that competition is legal and customers would be the ultimate decision-makers in any battle between the 10/20/40 and 701. Sure, it's messy and inefficient when two operators fight over one route, as evidenced by years of near-continuous bus route changes around Aberystwyth. But what alternative do you suggest in an unregulated market? A no-competition agreement or a cartel of operators dividing the network up as they see fit, perhaps? That'd be illegal and passengers would lose out as there would be no incentive to innovate, improve service or hold down fares.

My point about the changing of the 20's times has, all along, been that those times were changed AFTER arriva had taken the decision to close aberystwyth... after all I'm sure that they didn't change the timetable on 29th sept, decide to close the depot on 30th sept and then tell the unions on 1st oct.... that's a decision that they would have come to a long time ago... certainly before deciding to change the times

as to no official notice of withdrawing service 20 I refer again to their own facebook page... july 3rd (you will have to open the comments for that date as it is archived)... I can't see how much more official it can be made than the company telling a customer that it WILL be withdrawing the service.... and certainly both ceredigion council and bus users uk were under the impression that they were withdrawing from the route... where else would they have got their information from than arriva itself?

certainly coach travel wales (now bryans coaches) have never fought over the route.... they spotted a timing that people wished to travel on that wasn't provided by arriva.... they kept the same timetable only ever increasing the number of days that it operated.

in contrast, since 701 went daily on 1st april last year arriva has changed its timetable for 10/20/40 on at least 9 occasions... on the last change before service 10 was totally withdrawn they retimed that service so that instead of running 2 hour behind the 701 from swansea on sundays it ran 10 minutes ahead of the 701.... now doesn't that sound like a familiar tactic looking at the new timetable for service 20!

as to the situation with richards bros, the idea of richards terminating in aberaeron and connecting with arriva's service seems to stem back to the earliest days of deregulation when crosville only registered the service aber- synod inn... richards won the connecting contract to cardigan....

on a wider picture regarding the recent changes not only do they seem designed to try and ruin other operator's services but also to inconvenience their own customers as much as possible by skewing the whole timetable by 15 mins.

eg buses from carmarthen have, for as long as I have lived in the area, left at between 15 and 20 past the hour... all of a sudden they now leave at 05

so anyone who finishes work at 5pm has always had a leisurely stroll to the bus stop to get their bus home... now they are faced with performing an olympic standard sprint or waiting over an hour for their bus home...

is that any way to run a bus service? I think not

 

[TotallyGravy]

My point about the changing of the 20's times has, all along, been that those times were changed AFTER arriva had taken the decision to close aberystwyth... after all I'm sure that they didn't change the timetable on 29th sept, decide to close the depot on 30th sept and then tell the unions on 1st oct.... that's a decision that they would have come to a long time ago... certainly before deciding to change the times

But while you refer to the 29th September, that change was registered by the middle of August and therefore must have been planned some time before that - that means they set their new timetable at least six weeks before the closure plan was announced. And is the person revising the timetables really likely to be the same one who decides whether or not to close a whole portion of the business?

It's quite feasible that the timetable change was a last ditch attempt to turn a profit and that Arriva HQ simply ran out of patience and pulled the plug in the interim. After all, think how suddenly Arriva / DB Regio shut down the Wrexham & Shropshire train company they owned back in 2011 - once they got fed up with it haemorrhaging money, it was shut down almost overnight with barely a few days' warning!

I'm not ruling anything out, but the fact remains that Arriva have nothing to gain from attacking the 701 if they are selling the depot and leaving the area. Would you, as a profit-focused business, waste time, money and effort on re-scheduling your services one last time just to annoy a company who you won't even be competing with within three months?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

But while you refer to the 29th September, that change was registered by the middle of August and therefore must have been planned some time before that - that means they set their new timetable at least six weeks before the closure plan was announced. And is the person revising the timetables really likely to be the same one who decides whether or not to close a whole portion of the business?

It's quite feasible that the timetable change was a last ditch attempt to turn a profit and that Arriva HQ simply ran out of patience and pulled the plug in the interim. After all, think how suddenly Arriva / DB Regio shut down the Wrexham & Shropshire train company they owned back in 2011 - once they got fed up with it haemorrhaging money, it was shut down almost overnight with barely a few days' warning!

I'm not ruling anything out, but the fact remains that Arriva have nothing to gain from attacking the 701 if they are selling the depot and leaving the area. Would you, as a profit-focused business, waste time, money and effort on re-scheduling your services one last time just to annoy a company who you won't even be competing with within three months?

I concede that it does seem that it would be an extremely weird thing to do... however when you take into account the track record in this area of how arriva has reacted to things not going it's way it does look more likely that this is exactly what they are doing... trying to make sure that the whole network is destabilised.

as to the person designing the new timetable being the decision maker, I agree that he wouldn't be making the decisions... but by the same measure he does what he is told by the ones who DO make those decisions... and those decisions are made at a much more local level than arriva HQ. ALL arriva subsidiaries are self governing with a fully functioning board, so this decision was taken by staff at Arriva Cymru HQ not in sunderland

whatever their reasoning for the changes there is no doubt that they do not wish to stay in the area, and have no regard for the customers they will be inconveniencing...

my last word on the subject is that the customers should vote with their feet and use other company's services whenever possible...

 

[anthony263]

If Arriva do pull out of the area I can see the other local operators deciding to try an take over a few of the routes.

In fact I wouldnt be totally surprised if Bryans coaches decided to add additional trips on service 701 although there would be issues having to park the coach overnight in Cardiff unless a joint service is done with another operator based in the Cardiff Area (I can think of a few who may be intersted:

1.) First (Unikely)
2.) Stagecoach (They did operate one return tip on the old 701)
3.) New Adventure Travel (The way this lot have been expanding across south wales I wouldnt be too surprised if they did express an interest)
4.) Edwards Coaches (They have depots around Cardiff and Swansea and do a lot of work for National Express and Megabus)

Here is an old timetable for the 701 when it was run by Arriva and Stagecoach

 

[TotallyGravy]

I concede that it does seem that it would be an extremely weird thing to do... however when you take into account the track record in this area of how arriva has reacted to things not going it's way it does look more likely that this is exactly what they are doing... trying to make sure that the whole network is destabilised.

as to the person designing the new timetable being the decision maker, I agree that he wouldn't be making the decisions... but by the same measure he does what he is told by the ones who DO make those decisions... and those decisions are made at a much more local level than arriva HQ. ALL arriva subsidiaries are self governing with a fully functioning board, so this decision was taken by staff at Arriva Cymru HQ not in sunderland

whatever their reasoning for the changes there is no doubt that they do not wish to stay in the area, and have no regard for the customers they will be inconveniencing...

my last word on the subject is that the customers should vote with their feet and use other company's services whenever possible...

Fair enough. I can't claim to know Arriva's motives or workings better than yourself. On the plus side, if they really are trying to damage the remaining operators I don't think they'll manage it.

I'm sure the 701 will go from strength-to-strength and Mid Wales Travel look to be developing a good network around the town too. Just hope there'll be a stable, useful replacement for the 40 in due course, too.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Arriva have also got a reputation of repeatedly changing services between aberystwyth and aberaeron so that richard's bros' service to cardigan no longer connects...

This at least is true. They have broken the connections at least twice to my knowlage. There are also supposed to be conections from the X50 into the bus towards Lampeter/Carmarthen (and vice-versa), I think these suffered more than the Cardigan connections if I remember correctly. They also messed arround with which Richards Bros tickets they would accept a bit, and now won't except any ticket issued by Richards except the West Wales Rover.

I take the point about the connections at Aberaeron but if Richards Brothers sees no profit in carrying passengers north of Aberaeron for much of the day themselves, why is Arriva obliged to fill the gap in their network? In an ideal world, maybe they would be - but you can't blame them if they find the ability to retime the 40 service when they need to as more commercially valuable than picking up connecting passengers from another route.

Arriva run a half-hourly service Aberystwyth - Aberaeron, the X50 to Cardigan is only 2-hourly. If they extended the X50 it wouldn't really be very competitive would it? It would require subsidy (I think the current 6 buses per day to Aberystwth to/from Cardigan are subsidised anyway), which isn't allowed because Arriva's operation is commercial. Now Arriva is leaving, I hope the council will tender for the X50 to run to Aberystwyth all day.

As for retiming the X40 being more commercially valuable than picking up connecting passengers, well yes it may be. That doesn't stop them disscussing their plans with Richards in advance, giving Richards the chance to amend their timetable to connect. As far as I know, there was no excuse for it, they just didn't care about the connection.

eg buses from carmarthen have, for as long as I have lived in the area, left at between 15 and 20 past the hour... all of a sudden they now leave at 05

so anyone who finishes work at 5pm has always had a leisurely stroll to the bus stop to get their bus home... now they are faced with performing an olympic standard sprint or waiting over an hour for their bus home...

is that any way to run a bus service? I think not

These things don't appear to be easy, I am having a problem with just that kind of thing. I am trying to produce a draft timetable to send to the council suggesting improvements to the service which could be made with Arriva out of the way. The nice slot out of Aberystwyth for university/workers finishing on the hour seems to be xx:15, but that doesn't provide a connection out of train arrivals and more importantly you can't have the Carmarthen, New Quay and Cardigan buses going all at once. My starting point was TC1 departing for Carmarthen at xx:35 (time aimed at rail passengers, but it's not too bad if you finish work/uni on the hour, abysmal for anyone finishing work at xx:30 though). The trouble with this is, if you go for half-hourly clockface between Aberystwyth and Aberaeron, it puts the Cardigan / New Quay service departing at an inaccessible xx:05.

Anyone have any tips on working out a timetable suggestion?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This at least is true. They have broken the connections at least twice to my knowlage. There are also supposed to be conections from the X50 into the bus towards Lampeter/Carmarthen (and vice-versa), I think these suffered more than the Cardigan connections if I remember correctly. They also messed arround with which Richards Bros tickets they would accept a bit, and now won't except any ticket issued by Richards except the West Wales Rover.

Arriva run a half-hourly service Aberystwyth - Aberaeron, the X50 to Cardigan is only 2-hourly. If they extended the X50 it wouldn't really be very competitive would it? It would require subsidy (I think the current 6 buses per day to Aberystwth to/from Cardigan are subsidised anyway), which isn't allowed because Arriva's operation is commercial. Now Arriva is leaving, I hope the council will tender for the X50 to run to Aberystwyth all day.

I guess that Arriva's main focus was to operate their services, not worrying about other people's services. As we've discussed before, whatever market there is may not be particularly large; if it was, Richards Bros could have extended the service commercially.

As it is, you could easily see Richards Bros extending the service commercially to replace Arriva's 50. Whether they also want to take the 40 on as well, who knows? Certainly, Lampeter to Aber is probably commercial too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But while you refer to the 29th September, that change was registered by the middle of August and therefore must have been planned some time before that - that means they set their new timetable at least six weeks before the closure plan was announced. And is the person revising the timetables really likely to be the same one who decides whether or not to close a whole portion of the business?

It's quite feasible that the timetable change was a last ditch attempt to turn a profit and that Arriva HQ simply ran out of patience and pulled the plug in the interim. After all, think how suddenly Arriva / DB Regio shut down the Wrexham & Shropshire train company they owned back in 2011 - once they got fed up with it haemorrhaging money, it was shut down almost overnight with barely a few days' warning!

I'm not ruling anything out, but the fact remains that Arriva have nothing to gain from attacking the 701 if they are selling the depot and leaving the area. Would you, as a profit-focused business, waste time, money and effort on re-scheduling your services one last time just to annoy a company who you won't even be competing with within three months?

Think you're spot on. The likely scenario is that Michael Morton has been reporting to UK Bus on a monthly basis, and that they've now pulled the plug.

I know of one Arriva depot that had a number of service changes (and wholesale replacement of the fleet with smaller, inferior vehicles) in order to help it survive. However, the decision to close was announced only 10 weeks later so the local management can make changes yet be overridden by the UK management.

I too struggle to see just why the 701 would be the target of Arriva's ire.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

....I too struggle to see just why the 701 would be the target of Arriva's ire.

quite simply arriva originally ran the 701 on roughly the same timings as it runs now...

for whatever reason they changed the service to the x40 (now 20) and changed the timings... passengers were not happy at losing a travel pattern that had been established for over 25 years.

Coach Travel Wales (a subsidiary company of Bryans Coaches) put on a replacement 701 at the request of passengers on fridays and sundays...

since then CTW's 701 has gone from strength to strength until it has become a daily service (now twice daily) regularly carrying full loads

at the same time Arriva's service has withered and almost died, not helped by constant timetable changes...

I can see EXACTLY why arriva would be angry and would want to attempt to wreck the 701 operation

btw as I already stated the connections with richards bros services to cardigan have been established as the norm for 25 years now ever since Crosville wales decided that the service south of Synod Inn wasn't commercial and the contract was given to Richards... it is only the connecting point that has changed in those intervening years.... while arriva may not be obliged at law to honour the practise of keeping that connection surely it is in their commercial interests to not continually aggravate the customers who rely on that connection?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

quite simply arriva originally ran the 701 on roughly the same timings as it runs now...

for whatever reason they changed the service to the x40 (now 20) and changed the timings... passengers were not happy at losing a travel pattern that had been established for over 25 years.

Coach Travel Wales (a subsidiary company of Bryans Coaches) put on a replacement 701 at the request of passengers on fridays and sundays...

since then CTW's 701 has gone from strength to strength until it has become a daily service (now twice daily) regularly carrying full loads

at the same time Arriva's service has withered and almost died, not helped by constant timetable changes...

I can see EXACTLY why arriva would be angry and would want to attempt to wreck the 701 operation

btw as I already stated the connections with richards bros services to cardigan have been established as the norm for 25 years now ever since Crosville wales decided that the service south of Synod Inn wasn't commercial and the contract was given to Richards... it is only the connecting point that has changed in those intervening years.... while arriva may not be obliged at law to honour the practise of keeping that connection surely it is in their commercial interests to not continually aggravate the customers who rely on that connection?

Appreciate the history about the 701. Remember it as a Crosville Wales/Rhondda operation. However, I think you're mistaken about the motives of Arriva. Was it a competitive move to retime? Undoubtedly, but was it a wrecking move as part of their retreat?

Sorry but I just don't see it. I know people who've worked for Arriva, and the instance I gave earlier where the people on the ground were making changes to "save" a depot and then the closure was announced 10 weeks later. In truth, the local management were probably busy trying to shore up the situation and that means competition (i.e. retiming so as not to lose passengers to the 701). In the meantime, Michael Morton was probably at his monthly review where, once again, the subject of Aberystwyth losing money was on the agenda. After so long, he probably got told to cut it.

Therefore, I think that the changes to the 20 against the 701 whilst the depot was being prepared for closure is less likely to be conspiracy and rather more cock up and coincidence.

I can't think of any area where they've decided to pull out and then have a spiteful, laying waste of the area. When they closed their Stokesley depot, they actually closed it but then kept two vehicles outbased there for about 6 weeks whilst the council retendered one service.

Sadly, there will be examples where any operator may enter into competition, react to protect their markets, or indeed withdraw services or whole depots. In my experience, Arriva have not been particularly spiteful. You mention that MK; surely the fact that they have reduced their market share from 95% to 60% actually indicates that they're prepared to tolerate other operators on marginal or tendered services?

Would Aberystwyth have been better with another of the big operators? Stagecoach - most certainly. However, ask any person in Dorset (another marginal county) about either First or Go Ahead, and they might be less enthusiastic

 

[quarella]

I saw a First Cymru liveried Enviro on the T9 to Cardiff airport at Culverhouse Cross at 1900 yesterday, Sun 061013.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Appreciate the history about the 701. Remember it as a Crosville Wales/Rhondda operation. However, I think you're mistaken about the motives of Arriva. Was it a competitive move to retime? Undoubtedly, but was it a wrecking move as part of their retreat?

Sorry but I just don't see it. I know people who've worked for Arriva, and the instance I gave earlier where the people on the ground were making changes to "save" a depot and then the closure was announced 10 weeks later. In truth, the local management were probably busy trying to shore up the situation and that means competition (i.e. retiming so as not to lose passengers to the 701). In the meantime, Michael Morton was probably at his monthly review where, once again, the subject of Aberystwyth losing money was on the agenda. After so long, he probably got told to cut it.

Therefore, I think that the changes to the 20 against the 701 whilst the depot was being prepared for closure is less likely to be conspiracy and rather more cock up and coincidence.

I can't think of any area where they've decided to pull out and then have a spiteful, laying waste of the area. When they closed their Stokesley depot, they actually closed it but then kept two vehicles outbased there for about 6 weeks whilst the council retendered one service.

Sadly, there will be examples where any operator may enter into competition, react to protect their markets, or indeed withdraw services or whole depots. In my experience, Arriva have not been particularly spiteful. You mention that MK; surely the fact that they have reduced their market share from 95% to 60% actually indicates that they're prepared to tolerate other operators on marginal or tendered services?

Would Aberystwyth have been better with another of the big operators? Stagecoach - most certainly. However, ask any person in Dorset (another marginal county) about either First or Go Ahead, and they might be less enthusiastic

I don't think we'll ever agree about arriva's motives... I can only go by the pattern I've seen emerge. Arriva's plans originally were to stop serving swansea completely... part of that strategy was to retime the 10 for it's last couple of months of operation to run 10 mins ahead of 701 from swansea on sundays... now they are withdrawing from aber completely and all of a sudden they decide to run the 20 a few mins ahead of 701....

coincidence or deliberate planning to cause as much upset as possible? no-one really knows the answer to that one apart from arriva.

as to the example of milton keynes... I was living there when it was part of Julian Peddle's portfolio... MK Metro was certainly a very streamlined and PROFITABLE operation... the truth is arriva is alone among the big groups that still expects a 15% profit on all services... and is ruthless in getting rid of anything that doesn't live up to that expectation... and that was the problem in MK... much of the mileage was only marginally profitable... however Julian Peddle sensibly took the view that as long as it didn't LOSE money then the service should be retained... on the basis that those marginal services feed customers into the profitable operations. Arriva cannot fathom that when you cut marginal services ruthlessly you start losing bums on seats on the more profitable parts causing a destabilisation of those profitable services... leading to a downward spiral...

 

[Rhydgaled]

I saw a First Cymru liveried Enviro on the T9 to Cardiff airport at Culverhouse Cross at 1900 yesterday, Sun 061013.

Interesting. The T9 supposedly has at least one spare Tempo available (5 buses for 4 diagrams I think I read somewhere). Was that the only service you saw? If not, where there Tempos on other T9 services?

 

[PaulHarding150]

Interesting. The T9 supposedly has at least one spare Tempo available (5 buses for 4 diagrams I think I read somewhere). Was that the only service you saw? If not, where there Tempos on other T9 services?

I saw a First Cymru Coach operating on the T9 route a few days ago, something must have gone wrong with one or more of the buses, which don't forget are in constant use for 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week.

 

[swifty]

I saw a First Cymru Coach operating on the T9 route a few days ago, something must have gone wrong with one or more of the buses, which don't forget are in constant use for 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week.

They've now got 6 Tempos, a further unused X1260 Tempo arrived last month.

 

[Rhydgaled]

They've now got 6 Tempos, a further unused X1260 Tempo arrived last month.

Still covering four diagrams, or are there more now?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Interesting. The T9 supposedly has at least one spare Tempo available (5 buses for 4 diagrams I think I read somewhere). Was that the only service you saw? If not, where there Tempos on other T9 services?

don't forget First aren't exactly renowned for getting the right buses on the right routes... they recently bought new buses for the X2 and had a special livery and sign writing for the service... they've spent most of their time on the X1!

 

[Rhydgaled]

don't forget First aren't exactly renowned for getting the right buses on the right routes... they recently bought new buses for the X2 and had a special livery and sign writing for the service... they've spent most of their time on the X1!

Sounds like Arriva in Aberystwyth...

Mind you, while they used to be quite good, Richards now seem to have YJ55BKE and YJ55BKF (the branded Aberystwyth... Aberaeron... Cardigan... X50 vehicles) on other routes most of the time. That could be because they are using the old X40 Cardiff Tempos (in unbranded TrawsCymru colours) on most X50 trips though. One of the vehicles branded for 412 also retained the route-specific branding even when it was moved off the service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't think we'll ever agree about arriva's motives... I can only go by the pattern I've seen emerge. Arriva's plans originally were to stop serving swansea completely... part of that strategy was to retime the 10 for it's last couple of months of operation to run 10 mins ahead of 701 from swansea on sundays... now they are withdrawing from aber completely and all of a sudden they decide to run the 20 a few mins ahead of 701....

coincidence or deliberate planning to cause as much upset as possible? no-one really knows the answer to that one apart from arriva.

as to the example of milton keynes... I was living there when it was part of Julian Peddle's portfolio... MK Metro was certainly a very streamlined and PROFITABLE operation... the truth is arriva is alone among the big groups that still expects a 15% profit on all services... and is ruthless in getting rid of anything that doesn't live up to that expectation... and that was the problem in MK... much of the mileage was only marginally profitable... however Julian Peddle sensibly took the view that as long as it didn't LOSE money then the service should be retained... on the basis that those marginal services feed customers into the profitable operations. Arriva cannot fathom that when you cut marginal services ruthlessly you start losing bums on seats on the more profitable parts causing a destabilisation of those profitable services... leading to a downward spiral...

I think you're probably right on the first point I can understand why they would compete with the 701, but I just cannot fathom why they would seek to deliberately try to wreck another business out of spite. Compete hard, by all means, but this looks more cock up than conspiracy.

As for Arriva chasing the big margins, that's quite misleading. TAS have recently produced the facts and figures on that and Stagecoach had 7/10 of the best margin businesses and they were c.20%. Mind you, they also had Orkney losing 14% (albeit on a small turnover).

The comments about MK are interesting as I have a very good mate who worked for both Status Group and Arriva; he was a manager so I'll not use too much detail - sure you appreciate why. Julian Peddle is a good operator though not as hands on as many would think. However, there was a well nigh religious approach to cost control and, of course, he could afford to not worry about margins on some routes (no shareholders). Instead, he focussed on developing the business but always with a view that it was for sale at the right time/price. I heard it likened to a buy to let landlord - not gonna make so much on the revenue but on the appreciation of the asset price. However, I might point out that you have pointed out the success of MK Metro being very profitable, whilst decrying Arriva for chasing profits.

As for Arriva, he has seen good and weak operations. He now works for another firm but felt that central diktat was quite restrictive towards local managers. Not as bad as First was in Lockhead days, as Arriva have tended to keep on top of investment (on the whole) but not the freedom as a Stagecoach or other businesses.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I think you're probably right on the first point I can understand why they would compete with the 701, but I just cannot fathom why they would seek to deliberately try to wreck another business out of spite. Compete hard, by all means, but this looks more cock up than conspiracy.

As for Arriva chasing the big margins, that's quite misleading. TAS have recently produced the facts and figures on that and Stagecoach had 7/10 of the best margin businesses and they were c.20%. Mind you, they also had Orkney losing 14% (albeit on a small turnover).

The comments about MK are interesting as I have a very good mate who worked for both Status Group and Arriva; he was a manager so I'll not use too much detail - sure you appreciate why. Julian Peddle is a good operator though not as hands on as many would think. However, there was a well nigh religious approach to cost control and, of course, he could afford to not worry about margins on some routes (no shareholders). Instead, he focussed on developing the business but always with a view that it was for sale at the right time/price. I heard it likened to a buy to let landlord - not gonna make so much on the revenue but on the appreciation of the asset price. However, I might point out that you have pointed out the success of MK Metro being very profitable, whilst decrying Arriva for chasing profits.

As for Arriva, he has seen good and weak operations. He now works for another firm but felt that central diktat was quite restrictive towards local managers. Not as bad as First was in Lockhead days, as Arriva have tended to keep on top of investment (on the whole) but not the freedom as a Stagecoach or other businesses.

I've got a funny feeling I know who you're talking about when you say you have a mate that worked for MK Metro as manager... if he worked for First before and moved to Aylesbury under arriva... I also worked at MK Metro during the transition...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That's not the guy. However, if you worked there around the millennium, then you'd have met my mate at some point!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

whatever arriva's motives for changing their times on the 20 it's backfired...

saw the 20 the other day with about half a dozen on it.... followed close behind by the 701 with over half a full load....

 

[Rhydgaled]

whatever arriva's motives for changing their times on the 20 it's backfired...

saw the 20 the other day with about half a dozen on it.... followed close behind by the 701 with over half a full load....

I've only seen the 20 once or twice, but if my very limited observations are anything to go by 6 passengers is actually an improvement.

There are some Arriva posters advertising the 20 and targeted at students at the bus station in Aberystwyth, along with a timetable for 701 headed 'The Blue Bus Service' or something like that. I don't think much of the accuracy of the latter statement as the 701 is a coach and I'm not sure if it's even blue anymore (it was, but I think it was a silver one when I saw it more recently).

 

[anthony263]

Bryans coach are using a Silver liveried coach at the moment on one of their services to Cardiff

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've only seen the 20 once or twice, but if my very limited observations are anything to go by 6 passengers is actually an improvement.

There are some Arriva posters advertising the 20 and targeted at students at the bus station in Aberystwyth, along with a timetable for 701 headed 'The Blue Bus Service' or something like that. I don't think much of the accuracy of the latter statement as the 701 is a coach and I'm not sure if it's even blue anymore (it was, but I think it was a silver one when I saw it more recently).

Working on that basis, you'd also have an issue with Megabus??

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I've only seen the 20 once or twice, but if my very limited observations are anything to go by 6 passengers is actually an improvement.

There are some Arriva posters advertising the 20 and targeted at students at the bus station in Aberystwyth, along with a timetable for 701 headed 'The Blue Bus Service' or something like that. I don't think much of the accuracy of the latter statement as the 701 is a coach and I'm not sure if it's even blue anymore (it was, but I think it was a silver one when I saw it more recently).

saw a hilarious situation in aber bus stn on saturday morning... service 20 on stand with loads of passengers milling about... 701 pulled onto its stand and the passengers crossed the road en masse and boarded the 701... I wonder if arriva are starting to get the message about what the people of aber think of them?

 

[starrymarkb]

Working on that basis, you'd also have an issue with Megabus??

Though Megabus did start out with ex Hong Kong Deckers before progressively upgrading to the current mix of MegaPanthers, Interdecks and Astromegas

 

[Rhydgaled]

saw a hilarious situation in aber bus stn on saturday morning... service 20 on stand with loads of passengers milling about... 701 pulled onto its stand and the passengers crossed the road en masse and boarded the 701... I wonder if arriva are starting to get the message about what the people of aber think of them?

A passenger boarding the Richards Bros X50 at 6:15pm today asked something about whether they (Richards) would be picking up some of the service when Arriva goes. This passenger voiced the opinion that they don't want to lose the buses but don't like Arriva and would rather somebody else was running the buses...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Though Megabus did start out with ex Hong Kong Deckers before progressively upgrading to the current mix of MegaPanthers, Interdecks and Astromegas

Yes but surely using coaches now demands a rebrand!!

That said, Stagecoach vehicles aren't pulled by horses either!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A passenger boarding the Richards Bros X50 at 6:15pm today asked something about whether they (Richards) would be picking up some of the service when Arriva goes. This passenger voiced the opinion that they don't want to lose the buses but don't like Arriva and would rather somebody else was running the buses...

They won't lose them. Somebody will register the services from Aber to Synod Inn/Aberaeron as they're commercially sustainable.

The biggest question is probably the Lampeter to Carmarthen section.

 

[anthony263]

Well I heard tonight that the welsh government has agreed to give some short term funding for teh X94 but no news on the Aberystwyth to Camrthen - Cardiff service. I supposed the extensions beyond Carmarthen to Swansea and Cardiff can be covered by the commercial 701 which could be increased in frequency with other coaches in the morning from Cardiff.

I think a hourly service between Aberystywth and Carmarthen railway station connecting with rail services will be enough for now on that route in addition to the 701

 

[Robertj21a]

Update from the BBC at:-

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24540098>

Robert