Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[30907]

If there wasn't any track in situ at all west of Exeter, what would you build?

Ignoring N Devon and N Cornwall totally, and thinking main lines only, a heavily-engineered route direct to Plymouth, which would probably cut 20 minutes off the journey. Serving Newton Abbot and Totnes rather than following the A38 would be more realistic, but save less time.
A branch to Torbay would be essential either way.
Dawlish and Teignmouth would have to lump it!

Just doing Exminster-Newton GWR style would only save 5-10 minutes (it's 5 miles or so shorter than via Dawlish).

We're not starting from scratch, though, sadly, and I doubt if either project could be justified in economic terms, as compared with the cost of upgrading to 125mph from Bristol and Reading to Exeter, which would bring the same result and benefit rather more people.

If we are talking diversionary routes then Bere Alston-Okehampton is the only show in town, as it was built as a main line - the old Teign Valley route wasn't built for speed but followed river valleys (surprise!).
But it would be liable to be blocked by snow (though hopefully on different days to south-easterlies at Dawlish?)

 

[brad465]

This is the link to a brief report from Devon County Council from 2010 which lists some of the challenges. The report does not rule out that the line can be reinstated, it simply hides behind the meme "but it will cost a lot of money". http://www.devon.gov.uk/loadtrimdocument?url=&filename=EEC/10/216/HQ.CMR&rn=10/WD2500&dg=Public

Like a lot of things/proposals I hope the idea that the cost-benefit ratio is highly in favour of reopening the line, especially with economic costs of £1-2 million per day for Devon and Cornwall while the line is closed.

 

[HowardGWR]

Like a lot of things/proposals I hope the idea that the cost-benefit ratio is highly in favour of reopening the line, especially with economic costs of £1-2 million per day for Devon and Cornwall while the line is closed.

There is no possibility of awaiting an Okehampton reinstatement, which will take at least two years, even under draconian legislation and armies of constructors being hired. The 'choice' facing NR is to go on with shuttles between Newton A and Penzance / Paignton and then 'luxury' coaches from NA to Exeter followed by 'shuttle' to Paddington.

In other words there are no choices. The only issue is which route to construct between NA and Exeter. The Okehampton route has very good credentials for construction as a secondary and second route anyway, and always did.

Meanwhile a new sea wall solution (could involve an outer sea wall?) with perhaps a projected 20 year lifespan could be begun. How long that will take is anyone's guess. Any 'fill in' solution surely would leave NR saying its prayers every winter?

What a challenge for the engineer managers this is.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. Okehampton makes sense as a secondary and diversionary route, but Dawlish still needs to be reinstated in the short term.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

As well as looking into reopening the line via Okehampton. There was another line that ran from Exeter to Newton Abbot, there are still "Stumps" of both ends of this line near both the above Stations. It would be worth looking to see how easy it would be to reopen that. (Am I correct in assuming this is known as the Heathfield Route?) The distance can not be that long, but parts of that old route may have been built over now. I think a UK Railtour went on these bits of line a few years ago.

Then use either or both of these two new routes for mainline through services and have local services from Exeter to Dawlish Warren and from NA to Teignmouth. (These could be extentions of the local services from Barnstable/Exeter, Exmouth/Exeter and from Paignton to Teignmouth.)

In the meantime perhaps when the weather has calmed down somewhat and other parts of the GWR has been mended maybe there could be through rail services from NA & Teignmouth to Penzance and all the usual branches using what whatever trains are trapped in Devon/Cornwall. Does any one know what 125s, XCs and local units are stuck there at the moment?

 

[D1009]

Dawlish and Teignmouth would have to lump it!

Are you suggesting the sea wall does not need to be maintained, and the all of the seaside part of Dawlish should be left to the mercy of the sea?

 

[gshevlin]

I agree that this route cannot be usefully reinstated in less than 2 years. If the job is worth doing, it's worth doing properly. There is no use in threading a cheap and nasty single track line over the former trackbed in a hurry, since that will not be a durable substitute for the Devon coastal line if that line is closed again due to coastal damage. I would expect that a properly engineered route might depart from the current trackbed quite significantly to allow for higher speeds. The original route was built in a hurry, like many 19th century rail routes, and it is not exactly a model of nice straights and wide curves...it zig-zags a fair bit.

 

[HowardGWR]

Am I correct in assuming this is known as the Heathfield Route? The distance can not be that long, but parts of that old route may have been built over now. I think a UK Railtour went on these bits of line a few years ago.

Yes Heathfield, Chudleigh, Ide, it was sometimes used for diversions but it really was very 'light railway'. Not much built on, but needing a full re-engineering of it which I suspect would be less desirable than attacking a tunnel solution under Haldon Hill. Have a look at Google Earth and you will see how mickey mouse it is and includes a tunnel too, but again a narrow one probably.

Just adding that in the NR archives, there is a full engineered solution for avoiding Dawlish, that the GWR designed before the war. I expect Mr Hallgate (chief NR) has dug that one out by now.

 

[Tobbes]

I agree that this route cannot be usefully reinstated in less than 2 years. If the job is worth doing, it's worth doing properly.

Quite right.

I would expect that a properly engineered route might depart from the current trackbed quite significantly to allow for higher speeds. The original route was built in a hurry, like many 19th century rail routes, and it is not exactly a model of nice straights and wide curves...it zig-zags a fair bit.

I'm less sure about this. Given that much of the route is a cyclepath (and presumably owned by the Council or something similar) straightening the route and taking new land to do it sounds much more expensive and time-consuming. Are there specific deviations that you've got in mind? How much time would they save? Just curious.

Tobbes

 

[gshevlin]

I'm less sure about this. Given that much of the route is a cyclepath (and presumably owned by the Council or something similar) straightening the route and taking new land to do it sounds much more expensive and time-consuming. Are there specific deviations that you've got in mind? How much time would they save? Just curious.
Tobbes

I do not have any specific deviations in mind, but my tentative conclusion is that the route cannot follow the old trackbed in any case. Some local council offices have been built on it in the Tavistock area, just to give one example. The intermediate stations between Meldon quarry and Bere Alston are also mostly in private ownership and used as residences.
My thinking is that it might be easier to buy up a strip of farmland for a trackbed than to get involved in an eminent domain dispute with a property owner whose building happens to be on the old trackbed (or was part of the railway infrastructure). If you work on the assumption that the old trackbed is not sacrosanct, then some of the twists and turns could be eliminated. The old route was speed-limited due to a combination of older-specification track and signalling, limited power of (steam) locos and sharp curves. You wouldn't want those restrictions baked into the replacement line.

 

[47802]

Are you suggesting the sea wall does not need to be maintained, and the all of the seaside part of Dawlish should be left to the mercy of the sea?

I think the cost of any diversionary route has to be assessed against possible cost savings closing the Dawlish route and what savings could be made with regard to sea defences, obviously sea defences would need to be maintained around Dawlish but perhaps they would take a different form without the line, and would sea defences need to be maintained on all sections of the existing route?

 

[Hardcastle]

There is a e-petition going for reopening the route via Okehampton if anybody is interested in signing.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the cost of any diversionary route has to be assessed against possible cost savings closing the Dawlish route and what savings could be made with regard to sea defences, obviously sea defences would need to be maintained around Dawlish but perhaps they would take a different form without the line, and would sea defences need to be maintained on all sections of the existing route?

But also the loss of amenity for Dawlish and Teignmouth etc. The loss of rail services would be a considerable blow for these communities.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is a e-petition going for reopening the route via Okehampton if anybody is interested in signing.

Link below:

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/60320
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Seems Someone's duplicated it. This is the larger one:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/search?q=okehampton

 

[Hardcastle]

There is a e-petition on going atm regarding reopening the Okehampton route if anyone cares to sign it.

 

[Hardcastle]

Thanks Yorkrob for the link am not very good at doing them am pretty new on the forum.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Reopening Meldon-Tavistock or Heathfield (or indeed an entirely new alignment) would not lead directly to closing the current coastal route, certainly not in the short to medium term. There may well come a time in the next 100-150 years though that the stretch along the Dawlish sea wall has to be abandoned, possibly along with the towns of Dawlish and Teignmouth themselves. Whenever that time comes, we really need to have an alternative route in place before it happens. The current damage to the route is the worst we've seen in over a century, but it does seem likely that such events will become more frequent, so an alternative route needs to be a goal in the medium term. In the meantime, the rebuilding of the damaged section is also an opportunity to improve the resilience of the defences along the sea wall as well as a wake-up call to government that an alternative route needs to be planned if not constructed as soon as possible. The Meldon route would have disadvantages such as requiring 2 reversals for services from Paddington to Penzance- but as someone pointed out earlier reversals are not that much of an issue for modern rolling stock.

Ideally, any alternative route should be able to justify itself for reasons beyond being an alternative to the sea wall. Meldon-Tavistock probably does this better than Heathfield in terms of catchment area (though I'm not sure if there's many significant settlements other than Okehampton and Tavistock themselves).

 

[Kettledrum]

This is the link to a brief report from Devon County Council from 2010 which lists some of the challenges. The report does not rule out that the line can be reinstated, it simply hides behind the meme "but it will cost a lot of money". http://www.devon.gov.uk/loadtrimdocument?url=&filename=EEC/10/216/HQ.CMR&rn=10/WD2500&dg=Public

Some great quotes in that 2010 report. For example:

"Due to the works undertaken, mentioned above, and ongoing monitoring and maintenance regime, Network Rail are confident that the railway sea defences around Dawlish will not fail in the foreseeable future. The costs of maintaining the sea walls and the Estuary are approximately £500,000 a year. Network Rail consider that this regime of continuing maintenance, monitoring and route management will continue to be adequate until about 2025, after which an increased level of funding is likely to be required to maintain rail services along this route all day every day."

"This position is the same as the UK Government, as discussed in Parliament on Wednesday 10 November 2010 when the Transport Minister stated that this alignment will remain as the main line to Cornwall for the indefinite future. As such, it is important to note that the construction of an inland route, linking Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock on the previous rail alignment should not be viewed as an alternative to the existing Great Western mainline route."

"A House of Commons enquiry reported in February 2009 that the likely cost of re-instating this railway would be some £100 million. Considering that the Government are committed to preserving the current alignment of the Great Western mainline, it is extremely unlikely that such funding will come forward for this project in the near future."

How quickly things have changed

 

[backontrack]

I'll sign. URL please?

 

[yorksrob]

Ideally, any alternative route should be able to justify itself for reasons beyond being an alternative to the sea wall. Meldon-Tavistock probably does this better than Heathfield in terms of catchment area (though I'm not sure if there's many significant settlements other than Okehampton and Tavistock themselves).

You could also argue that the line would act as a railhead to the Dartmoor national park as well.

 

[Goatboy]

There is a e-petition on going atm regarding reopening the Okehampton route if anyone cares to sign it.

Seems a bit kneejerk. Just how much use is it?

It would take ages to get an IC125 or similar from Exeter to Plymouth via this route including 2 reversals and low linespeeds. Far quicker to coach up/down the A38 in the ultra rare event of something blocking the line.

 

[gshevlin]

Some great quotes in that 2010 report. For example:

"Due to the works undertaken, mentioned above, and ongoing monitoring and maintenance regime, Network Rail are confident that the railway sea defences around Dawlish will not fail in the foreseeable future. The costs of maintaining the sea walls and the Estuary are approximately £500,000 a year. Network Rail consider that this regime of continuing maintenance, monitoring and route management will continue to be adequate until about 2025, after which an increased level of funding is likely to be required to maintain rail services along this route all day every day."

"This position is the same as the UK Government, as discussed in Parliament on Wednesday 10 November 2010 when the Transport Minister stated that this alignment will remain as the main line to Cornwall for the indefinite future. As such, it is important to note that the construction of an inland route, linking Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock on the previous rail alignment should not be viewed as an alternative to the existing Great Western mainline route."

"A House of Commons enquiry reported in February 2009 that the likely cost of re-instating this railway would be some £100 million. Considering that the Government are committed to preserving the current alignment of the Great Western mainline, it is extremely unlikely that such funding will come forward for this project in the near future."

How quickly things have changed

The entire verbiage of the report perpetuates the assumption that the sea fortifications would not be damaged by big storms. IOW, the report perpetuates cheerful-whistling optimism into the future, regarding the sea defenses as a maintenance-only effort.
The cost of the repairs from the recent storm ought to undermine that cozy assumption. I wonder whether it will.

 

[yorksrob]

Seems a bit kneejerk. Just how much use is it?

It would take ages to get an IC125 or similar from Exeter to Plymouth via this route including 2 reversals and low linespeeds. Far quicker to coach up/down the A38 in the ultra rare event of something blocking the line.

As I said on a previous post, one end (Tavistock) needs to be built already to ease road congestion, the other (Okehampton) local powers are agitating for a better rail service and connectivity. Rather than having two dead end branches, reopening the route throughout would be a step change in transport for the area as well as providing diversionary routes for hiccups on the Dawlish line.

Also, as others have pointed out, reversals are hardly an issue with modern stock and with modern track and signalling, would it really take ages any more than diversions via Yeovil today ? I doubt it.

Petition is here:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/search?q=okehampton

I should add as well that some of us have been saying this for years, so it's hardly kneejerk - just slightly more topical.

 

[backontrack]

I thought that, with the Dawlish sea wall collapse and all, it was a good time to talk about how I would improve the services to Cornwall and Devon. Apologies, as I know this probably won't happen and there are probably many other threads like this.

I would open a new line between Okehampton and Truro. It would run through Launceston, Wadebridge and just past Newquay at a new station at Tolcarn Junction called 'Newquay Parkway' or the like. Yes, I would also reopen the line from Okehampton to Bere Alston via Tavistock, to give these towns a link to Plymouth (and also a diversionary route).

Places that this project would benefit:

Okehampton, which would get its normal terminating services increased as well as the new services.

Exeter, which would get a new, possibly faster link to Truro and Penzance.

Towns such as Bude, Camelford and Padstow would also get a better service as they would be near to stations on the line (maybe except Bude) but branches could open to all three of these places. I would also support reopenings for Bodmin and Fowey.

And finally Newquay. The services to/from Par would increase, particularly between Newquay Parkway and Newquay to link the town with the station.

So that is my idea. There are so many people on this forum who probably have a better idea, and I am aware of the need to reverse at Exeter St. Davids and the new congestion into the station.

Opinions?

-backontrack

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You could also argue that the line would act as a railhead to the Dartmoor national park as well.

This is true- we can argue until we're blue in the face that it shouldn't have been closed in the first place, but regardless of the state of the Dawlish line, there's surely enough going for it that the route would be an asset beyond simply being a diversion. As with many of the Devon & Cornwall branches, the winter services may require a sizeable chunk of subsidy- but isn't that one of the reasons we have a government and pay taxes in the first place?

 

[47802]

Reopening Meldon-Tavistock or Heathfield (or indeed an entirely new alignment) would not lead directly to closing the current coastal route, certainly not in the short to medium term. There may well come a time in the next 100-150 years though that the stretch along the Dawlish sea wall has to be abandoned, possibly along with the towns of Dawlish and Teignmouth themselves. Whenever that time comes, we really need to have an alternative route in place before it happens. The current damage to the route is the worst we've seen in over a century, but it does seem likely that such events will become more frequent, so an alternative route needs to be a goal in the medium term. In the meantime, the rebuilding of the damaged section is also an opportunity to improve the resilience of the defences along the sea wall as well as a wake-up call to government that an alternative route needs to be planned if not constructed as soon as possible. The Meldon route would have disadvantages such as requiring 2 reversals for services from Paddington to Penzance- but as someone pointed out earlier reversals are not that much of an issue for modern rolling stock.

Ideally, any alternative route should be able to justify itself for reasons beyond being an alternative to the sea wall. Meldon-Tavistock probably does this better than Heathfield in terms of catchment area (though I'm not sure if there's many significant settlements other than Okehampton and Tavistock themselves).

Clearly reopening the Okehampton would be looked on more as a alternate route, but a new line between Exeter and Newton Abbot could be judged against closing the Dawlish route or leaving it open and possibly singling it, I guess there could also be the option to continue to serve Teignmouth as a branch from Newton Abbot

 

[6Gman]

Cost?

Timetable?

Usage?

 

[backontrack]

I'm sorry, I've never done one of these before.

 

[LateThanNever]

Some great quotes in that 2010 report. For example:

"Due to the works undertaken, mentioned above, and ongoing monitoring and maintenance regime, Network Rail are confident that the railway sea defences around Dawlish will not fail in the foreseeable future. The costs of maintaining the sea walls and the Estuary are approximately £500,000 a year. Network Rail consider that this regime of continuing maintenance, monitoring and route management will continue to be adequate until about 2025, after which an increased level of funding is likely to be required to maintain rail services along this route all day every day."

So just 11 years out. Let's hope the six weeks repair estimate is more accurate tho' with another storm coming our way I rather doubt it.. But cannot honestly understand how on earth they arrived at the 2025 estimate that it would all change.
Mind you it is the least reinforced bit of the sea wall that collapsed. Given that sea defences are poorly understood - particularly in the strong current area that is the Exe estuary, wonder whether the reinforcements elsewhere have not actually helped in the failure of this particular bit of high wall? Perhaps that also added to the collapse of the dreaded Devon grit sandstone that was built on 'behind' the railway?

 

[backontrack]

Please see this:
http://http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=96328

I should have checked to see if this thread existed.

 

[TheWalrus]

I've been thinking about a route away from the sea wall and I think the best thing to do would be to build a 125mph route coming off just south of Exeter cutting straight across to Newton Abbot. This would avoid the sea wall and give a much faster intercity route to Plymouth and Cornwall.