Pendolino Refurbishment/Modernisation

[fowler9]

If anyone thinks a Pendolino is loud to travel on they should give a Boeing 777 a go. On the plus side a 777 is less claustrophobic for me personally and doesn't smell like an open sewer. Sorry, probably a bad comparison, ha ha.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If anyone thinks a Pendolino is loud to travel on they should give a Boeing 777 a go. On the plus side a 777 is less claustrophobic for me personally and doesn't smell like an open sewer. Sorry, probably a bad comparison, ha ha.

I do think that perhaps the Pendolinos were approved by someone who is involved in the airline industry . So someone who is used to the noise of a plane and would view a Pendolino as quiet in comparison .

There is a lot the Pendolinos do right otherwise we would not be moaning about the noise. But personally I prefer to go slower in a Mark3 coach, I could fly if I was really in a hurry.

 

[joeykins82]

With HS2 on the cards I'm not sure anyone is going to want to order more 390s since the majority of the WCML LDHS services will be run with HS2 captive or CC stock from 2026. If the ROSCOs are only going to get a guaranteed 12 years of revenue from them presumably the leasing costs will be significantly higher. With IEP entering service soon it's quite interesting trying to guess where the 390s will end up after HS2 is done.

 

[Blindtraveler]

on the WCML domestic trips?

 

[joeykins82]

If the intent is to run more suburban/interurban services I doubt that pendos would be NR's or the TOC's first choice. The seating capacity is lower and the station dwell times longer in intercity stock.

 

[Rhydgaled]

With HS2 on the cards I'm not sure anyone is going to want to order more 390s since the majority of the WCML LDHS services will be run with HS2 captive or CC stock from 2026. If the ROSCOs are only going to get a guaranteed 12 years of revenue from them presumably the leasing costs will be significantly higher. With IEP entering service soon it's quite interesting trying to guess where the 390s will end up after HS2 is done.

I don't believe HS2 would cut the ICWC frequencies significantly, it's about additional capacity not alternative (faster) capacity. There will be some reductions of course but I suspect spare Pendolinos could find a home elsewhere (2026-2030 would be about right to replace the remnant IC125 fleet on Great Western if you can get the necessary wires down to Plymouth/Penzance, I think the route from Reading to Plymouth via Westbury is 100mph max, maybe tilt could help that).

 

[joeykins82]

DfT just put up a graph showing the breakdown of expected peak hour departures from Euston of HS2, IC and fast commuter/regional services:

https://twitter.com/transportgovuk/status/395152017561100288/photo/1

Expectation of 3tph non-HS2 IC services, 8tph fast commuter/regional from 2026.

 

[Class83]

Has there been any suggestion that the remaining 21 Pendolini will be extended to 11-car? Also, are all London Midland peak services into London 12 car?

 

[Eagle]

Has there been any suggestion that the remaining 21 Pendolini will be extended to 11-car?

Not for the moment, although I wouldn't completely rule it out in future.

Also, are all London Midland peak services into London 12 car?

Not by a long shot; there are still loads of 8- and even 4-car services arriving into Euston in the peaks.

There will probably be a few more 12-car services once the 350/3s have arrived.

 

[Class83]

Not for the moment, although I wouldn't completely rule it out in future.


Not by a long shot; there are still loads of 8- and even 4-car services arriving into Euston in the peaks.

There will probably be a few more 12-car services once the 350/3s have arrived.

I'm increasingly of the view that given that the justification for HS2 is now capacity and not speed that phase 1 and some strategic grade separation around pinch points further north might be a better use of money. Though looking at this, 12 car London Midland Services and no Virgin services stopping south of Crewe/Birmingham (apologies to anyone from Milton Keynes) might be a whole lot cheaper. Oh and make the Pendolinos 8 Std, 3 1st.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm increasingly of the view that given that the justification for HS2 is now capacity and not speed that phase 1 and some strategic grade separation around pinch points further north might be a better use of money. Though looking at this, 12 car London Midland Services and no Virgin services stopping south of Crewe/Birmingham (apologies to anyone from Milton Keynes) might be a whole lot cheaper. Oh and make the Pendolinos 8 Std, 3 1st.

Yes I can see the phase 1 getting done at least. That means Pendolinos using HS2 until demand is such that capacity limits are reached and only then are faster trains required. If I remember correctly the Pendolinos were built to do 140mph anyway.

If the Great Western Main Line or Midland Main Line electrification was done later then that would have been where the Pendolinos could have been cascaded to. They also could have been used to bolster East Coast Main Line services.

On the subject of 6-car Pendolinos. I have often thought that the 9 car Pendolinos could be re-formed into 11-car and 6 car units. This would leave all the units with all coaches having similar mileage. Then build brand new 11-car Pendolinos to fill any gap. The point is that the extra 11-car Pendolinos would not be needed if HS2 takes the strain. Brainstorm over.

 

[AndyLandy]

Pendolinos using HS2 until demand is such that capacity limits are reached.

That's quite a neat idea, actually. It would allow us to postpone the cost of new rolling stock, whilst still freeing up WCML capacity. Not a bad plan, as long as it's feasible.

On the subject of 6-car Pendolinos. I have often thought that the 9 car Pendolinos could be re-formed into 11-car and 6 car units. This would leave all the units with all coaches having similar mileage. Then build brand new 11-car Pendolinos to fill any gap. The point is that the extra 11-car Pendolinos would not be needed if HS2 takes the strain. Brainstorm over.

Agreed. I've never been a fan of the "pint-sized Pendolino" project, but if we absolutely must have Babylinos, doing it by converting existing 9-car sets into 6- and 11-car sets seems a neat idea, as long as we don't compromise ourselves on the number of full-length trains needed.

 

[Mikey C]

By the time we get the 2030, the Pendolinos, especially the original ones, won't have that many years left in them anyway...

 

[HSTEd]

Using Pendos on HS2 is a terrible idea, not least because they have such huge operating costs per passenger compared to dedicated high speed stock.

The fact is that any Pendos displaced from front line work on the WCML will probably see out there twilight days on secondary routes such as any electrified XC corridors that have not been monopolised by bi-mode IEP

 

[Peter Sarf]

Using Pendos on HS2 is a terrible idea, not least because they have such huge operating costs per passenger compared to dedicated high speed stock.

The fact is that any Pendos displaced from front line work on the WCML will probably see out there twilight days on secondary routes such as any electrified XC corridors that have not been monopolised by bi-mode IEP

I thought Pendolinos were cheap to run - well cheaper than IEP.

Given DaFTs fondness of IEP I cannot see where they will let the Pendolinos operate !. If there is anywhere the Pendolinos can operate then perhaps Mark3 coaches are only going to get out on diesel routes. Then again there will be spare 220, 221 & 222 for that. I think there is going to be a glut of electric intercity trains coming.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I thought Pendolinos were cheap to run - well cheaper than IEP.

Given DaFTs fondness of IEP I cannot see where they will let the Pendolinos operate !. If there is anywhere the Pendolinos can operate then perhaps Mark3 coaches are only going to get out on diesel routes. Then again there will be spare 220, 221 & 222 for that. I think there is going to be a glut of electric intercity trains coming.

They are not cheaper to run than IEP. The government's procurement method is expensive.

 

[Blindtraveler]

bump! As mentioned in the Virgin Franchise Extention thread, 2.5m budget for Pendo refurb work plus 9 car units to have 1 coach of FC convested to Standard. Possible work on voyagers too? Is this sinply a rehash of last years announced work or something further? Not yet had a refurbed set, what have they done to the toilets? Also announced was new Wifi.

 

[driver_m]

bump! As mentioned in the Virgin Franchise Extention thread, 2.5m budget for Pendo refurb work plus 9 car units to have 1 coach of FC convested to Standard. Possible work on voyagers too? Is this sinply a rehash of last years announced work or something further? Not yet had a refurbed set, what have they done to the toilets? Also announced was new Wifi.

If you've been on a set with the blue luggage lights, it has been worked on. The kitchens have got new equipment in them and the toilets will have been worked on too. They'll be the ones with the vinyls and the message about not putting all kinds of things down them.

 

[Blindtraveler]

several months since last on one and unrefurbed at that time.

 

[jon0844]

They'll be the ones with the vinyls and the message about not putting all kinds of things down them.

You can still put fare evaders down them, right?

 

[Blindtraveler]

You can still put fare evaders down them, right?

Not with all the new gates there installing as part of new deal. And i hope your not suggesting anything?

 

[387star]

bump! As mentioned in the Virgin Franchise Extention thread, 2.5m budget for Pendo refurb work plus 9 car units to have 1 coach of FC convested to Standard. Possible work on voyagers too? Is this sinply a rehash of last years announced work or something further? Not yet had a refurbed set, what have they done to the toilets? Also announced was new Wifi.

Where does it mention the refurbishment? Is it true the toilet stench is a ing of the past?

 

[Blindtraveler]

The DFT Release comments upon it.

 

[Olaf]

The DfT announcement:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/better-journeys-for-passengers-on-the-west-coast-main-line

The £2.5M works out at about (very roughly) £4k per carriage, and that may include the time & materials for the improve wifi coverage.

 

[jon0844]

Not with all the new gates there installing as part of new deal. And i hope your not suggesting anything?

Damn. I didn't think of that downside of having gates installed!!

 

[harz99]

The DfT announcement:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/better-journeys-for-passengers-on-the-west-coast-main-line

The £2.5M works out at about (very roughly) £4k per carriage, and that may include the time & materials for the improve wifi coverage.

So no replacement seat cushions then....................

 

[WatcherZero]

I think the given figure is for Wi-Fi and first to standard conversion, there is also a seperate amount for Kitchen refurbishment.

 

[GatwickDepress]

So no replacement seat cushions then....................

Or a deep clean of the seat plastics. The scratches and stains are a bit off-putting - some of the backseat tables are worse than Northern 156s!

 

[shaun]

The seats aren't great on the Pendos, but the worst thing about them i have come to realise is their truly awful suspension at speed. More rickety than any other long-distance train I've been on (including MK1s), plus alot of banging from what i assume is the bogies. This wasn't a one-off, its pretty much everytime i use one on the WCML. They're fine at a reduced speed say between Wolves and Coventry, but at 125mph they are unacceptable for a modern train. I also use the Voyager trains to Euston and even with their underfloor engines, they are still smoother than the Pendos.

The Pendolino i travelled on in Italy recently was nothing like this at all. Very smooth, much more comfortable and of course it was going at an even higher speed. If they ever do build some more for the WCML or even ECML, they really need to sort this issue out!
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Where does it mention the refurbishment? Is it true the toilet stench is a ing of the past?

It most certainly is not, that said Chiltern seem to be suffering from a similar issue on their Silver Sets at the moment as well.

 

[harz99]

The seats aren't great on the Pendos, but the worst thing about them i have come to realise is their truly awful suspension at speed. More rickety than any other long-distance train I've been on (including MK1s), plus alot of banging from what i assume is the bogies. This wasn't a one-off, its pretty much everytime i use one on the WCML. They're fine at a reduced speed say between Wolves and Coventry, but at 125mph they are nacceptable for a modern train. I also use the Voyager trains to Euston and even with their underfloor engines, they are still smoother than the Pendos.

The Pendolino i travelled on in Italy recently was nothing like this at all. Very smooth, much more comfortable and of course it was going at an even higher speed. If they ever do build some more for the WCML or even ECML, they really need to sort this issue out!
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A lot depends on where you are seated; on Pendolinos I tend to sit in the middle of the carriage and don't really notice what you describe, however on EC/FGW HSTs and EC Mark 4s I tend to sit near the high seat number vestibule and notice exactly the noises and movement you describe.

I think the Voyagers better ride is simply because the carriages weigh more than the Pendolino ones?