Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[pemma]

We know from the Direct Award announcement Northern were to add evening peak restrictions on tickets but a date has now been given:

Also, Northern Rail is required to introduce Evening Peak Restrictions on the use of off peak tickets by 30 September, 2014. TfGM is required to seek the necessary consents and approvals for this, and is consulting with Northern Rail on the most effective way to implement the restrictions

I think this could make things worse on Saturdays leading up to Christmas as people who may have done Christmas shopping on weekdays may choose to do it at the weekend instead.

Mods' note: to avoid trawling the thread, here are the details:-

Staff Brief came out today, the following changes will happen from 7th September 2014:

Off-Peak Day tickets for travel wholly within the South Yorkshire area will not be valid from 1601 to 1829 inclusive Monday to Friday (except Bank Holidays).

Off-Peak Day and Duo tickets for travel wholly within the TfGM area, GM Rail Rangers and Daysavers (TM, TB, TBM) will not be valid from 1601 to 1829 inclusive Monday to Friday (except Bank Holidays). These restrictions will also appear on routes into the TfGM ticketing area from Alderley Edge, Burscough Bridge, Buxton, New Mills Central and Warrington (Bank Quay and Central)

GM Evening Rangers and Cheap Evening Returns will be withdrawn.

Off-Peak Day and Duo tickets for travel wholly within the West Yorkshire area, WY Day Rovers, WY Family Rovers and WY Train Day Rovers will not be valid from 1601 to 1829 inclusive Monday to Friday (except Bank Holidays) These restrictions will also appear on routes into West Yorkshire from Skipton and Knaresborough.

Off-Peak Day and Duo tickets for travel on the Hexham-Newcastle line (but not wholly within the Nexus ticketing area) will not be valid from 1601 to 1759 inclusive Monday to Friday (except Bank Holidays).

 

[yorkie]

They don't need to obtain "consent" from anyone to impose evening restrictions on Off Peak Day Singles & Returns (CDS/CDR)!

 

[Merseysider]

This is going to be interesting - on one train you'll have peak fares and then on the next one the fare will be half the off-peak price (ECD). Could lead to some very crowded trains.

 

[pemma]

This is going to be interesting - on one train you'll have peak fares and then on the next one the fare will be half the off-peak price (ECD). Could lead to some very crowded trains.

What'll also be interesting is it won't affect tickets priced by other operators even if Northern run services on that route e.g. Preston-Manchester is set by TPE but it will affect passengers travelling on non-Northern services where the ticket is priced by Northern e.g. Wilmslow-Manchester services on ATW services. I wonder how many confused guards they'll be, never mind how many confused STM RPIs.

 

[yorksrob]

There are Northern routes with off peak fares

Seriously. This sounds like London meddling to me.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I can't say I'm looking forwards to this, its unnecessary overcomplication when the solution isn't to add more restrictions, its to add more capacity, by whatever means possible.

 

[Merseysider]

There are Northern routes with off peak fares

Seriously. This sounds like London meddling to me.

Yeah, TFGM subsidise off peak fares so the single/return between any two stations within the ticketing boundary is never higher than £4.10/£4.20 respectively.

I can't say I'm looking forwards to this, its unnecessary overcomplication when the solution isn't to add more restrictions, its to add more capacity, by whatever means possible.

I can certainly see many 'opportunities' (if you would call them that) for splitting arising.

 

[pemma]

There are Northern routes with off peak fares

Seriously. This sounds like London meddling to me.

DfT put a number of ideas to Northern as ways of reducing costs, as part of the Direct Award and asked Northern to select suitable options. I'm not sure exactly what the other options are but I can't see this one reducing costs, except maybe a limited number of evening peak trains will suddenly not be overcrowded.

Northern don't seem to offer many Off-Peak Singles!

What annoys me about this is that if they make, say Manchester-Buxton Off-Peak Returns not valid between 16:30 and 18:30 then the first train after 18:30 will be packed full of Greater Manchester passengers on very cheap Evening Returns and then the Derbyshire passengers who are paying much more have to put up with the overcrowding, so you'd just be creating the same problem you have currently at peak time by allowing Off-Peak Returns to be used.
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I can certainly see many 'opportunities' (if you would call them that) for splitting arising.

Yeah especially if it's one blanket time for all lines so some trains depart the origin station a few minutes before the peak restriction ends.

 

[yorkie]

However they do it, there will be anomalies, it will make other trains more overcrowded, and on some trains the Guard will have to spend much of the journey excessing tickets for an extra few pennies and not be able to issue new tickets to people boarding at unstaffed stations as a result.

The following scenario happens on XC, and will soon happen on Northern...

"Sorry Sir, this isn't an off peak day service, therefore your Off Peak Day Return is not valid. I will have to charge you the excess to the Off Peak Return, which is valid. That will be £3.60 please"

In fact, an XC Guard once told me that he stopped charging such excesses as it made him look ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that many Off Peak Day fares would have been valid anyway as they were set by another operator!

Guards will spend an increasing amount of time trying to get small amounts of money in excess fares from confused passengers carrying Off Peak Day fares set by that operator, but any Off Peak fares, or Off Peak Day fares set by other operators will remain valid.

The rail industry continues to make ticketing more and more complex. That means it's even more vital to get the best advice from this forum to avoid being fleeced.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.....I think this could make things worse on Saturdays leading up to Christmas as people who may have done Christmas shopping on weekdays may choose to do it at the weekend instead.

Christmas in Manchester is one to avoid atm anyway, get it all done online or in October.....

DfT put a number of ideas to Northern as ways of reducing costs, as part of the Direct Award and asked Northern to select suitable options. I'm not sure exactly what the other options are but I can't see this one reducing costs.....

Reducing costs or increasing revenue.

....What annoys me about this is that if they make, say Manchester-Buxton Off-Peak Returns not valid between 16:30 and 18:30 then the first train after 18:30 will be packed full of Greater Manchester passengers on very cheap Evening Returns and then the Derbyshire passengers who are paying much more have to put up with the overcrowding, so you'd just be creating the same problem you have currently at peak time by allowing Off-Peak Returns to be used.....

I don't know about the Buxton line, but on my line, the people who travel out of Manchester around 1630-1830 tend to be the ones who travel in before 0930, and would not be subject to the peak restriction as they have Anytime tickets, Also, AFAIK, there is no word, yet, on ENCTS cards, which make up a fair number of 'off-peak travellers', or the cheap evening returns.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

To say i'm dreading it is an understatement, it can be hard work at 18.30 as it is with Cheap Evening Returns

 

[bb21]

DfT put a number of ideas to Northern as ways of reducing costs, as part of the Direct Award and asked Northern to select suitable options.

How typical! Reducing costs by increasing fares.

Off-Peak fares cannot have an evening restriction outside the South East anyway, so it will only be the Off-Peak Day fares that are affected.

 

[TOCDriver]

It will lead to chaos and trouble, simple as that. Utterly ridiculous and one decision that they will come to regret. I trust rovers will not be restricted at these times? E.g NW and All Line?

 

[GatwickDepress]

I've travelled on a few services in Northernland that would be classed as "Evening Peak" were they in the South East, and none of them were exactly packed.

This smacks of "catch passengers unawares and fine them senseless" to me, but perhaps I'm a cynic. What's really needed is fare simplification, not over-diversification...

 

[Class 92]

It will lead to chaos and trouble, simple as that. Utterly ridiculous and one decision that they will come to regret. I trust rovers will not be restricted at these times? E.g NW and All Line?

What about things like Day Rangers such as Cheshire and West Yorks Day Rover etc?

 

[Merseysider]

What about things like Day Rangers such as Cheshire and West Yorks Day Rover etc?

They can certainly try.

 

[RJ]

DfT put a number of ideas to Northern as ways of reducing costs, as part of the Direct Award and asked Northern to select suitable options. I'm not sure exactly what the other options are but I can't see this one reducing costs, except maybe a limited number of evening peak trains will suddenly not be overcrowded.

Northern don't seem to offer many Off-Peak Singles!

There were 8342 or thereabouts CDS type tickets priced by Northern at the beginning of the current fares round!

 

[Merseysider]

There were 8342 or thereabouts CDS type tickets priced by Northern at the beginning of the current fares round!

I imagine that for some passengers not travelling in the morning peak, unless the GM Rail Ranger becomes afternoon-restricted, it will be cheaper to buy that than the Anytime restrictions on tickets Northern wish to introduce.

 

[greatkingrat]

There were 8342 or thereabouts CDS type tickets priced by Northern at the beginning of the current fares round!

Although I suspect the vast majority are only 10p cheaper than the corresponding CDR and therefore of limited use in practice.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What time period do Northern Rail classify as "the evening peak period" ?

 

[34D]

What time period do Northern Rail classify as "the evening peak period" ?

A good question. I don't believe we we yet know

Also, is this just GM?

 

[Merseysider]

What time period do Northern Rail classify as "the evening peak period" ?

Probably as much of it as they can get away with

Edit: Why don't we ask them?

 

[yorkie]

This smacks of "catch passengers unawares and fine them senseless" to me, but perhaps I'm a cynic.

Well you're being a cynic in this case as if a passenger travels on a time restricted ticket, at a time the ticket isn't valid, the correct action is to excess the passenger to the appropriate fare (e.g. Off Peak Day would either be excessed to Anytime Day or Off Peak).

What's really needed is fare simplification, not over-diversification...

I agree that it shouldn't get any more complex, but we've had threads on proposals to "simplify". However feel free to post a new thread with your proposals on how the fares would be simplified.

 

[bb21]

This smacks of "catch passengers unawares and fine them senseless" to me, but perhaps I'm a cynic. What's really needed is fare simplification, not over-diversification...

There will be none of that.

Passengers found to be on an incorrect ticket simply because of a time restriction will be excessed to the correct fare, as per excess fare arrangements.

 

[RJ]

Although I suspect the vast majority are only 10p cheaper than the corresponding CDR and therefore of limited use in practice.

Some people who want to buy a single will look for the price of a single. In the case of the Nottingham to Leeds via Sheffield flow, the CDS is £23.10 and the SDS is £43.30.

Not everyone will think of buying a return for a single journey - so for what I suspect is probably a majority of punters making a one way trip, especially those purchasing online, the CDS has its place.

As an aside, that SDS is set at a ridiculous price. A Nottingham - Sheffield SDS is £12.90 and Sheffield - Leeds is £14.70, both routed Any Permitted.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Also, AFAIK, there is no word, yet, on ENCTS cards, which make up a fair number of 'off-peak travellers', or the cheap evening returns.

Since the holders of the TfGM issued ENTCS cards do not need to purchase any rail ticket in the times that travel is deemed allowable for journeys wholly within the recognised TfGM boundary of their acceptance, those passengers will see no difference.

 

[pemma]

There were 8342 or thereabouts CDS type tickets priced by Northern at the beginning of the current fares round!

How does that compare to off-peak returns? Looking at Knutsford to other stations on the Mid-Cheshire line there are 15 x off-peak returns available and 1 x off peak single available (Knutsford to Chester.)
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Since the holders of the TfGM issued ENTCS cards do not need to purchase any rail ticket in the times that travel is deemed allowable for journeys wholly within the recognised TfGM boundary of their acceptance, those passengers will see no difference.

Currently those passes and other tickets like Wayfarers are only valid at off-peak times, currently this is post-09:30 but could well change if the off-peak times change.

 

[jon0844]

There will be none of that.

Passengers found to be on an incorrect ticket simply because of a time restriction will be excessed to the correct fare, as per excess fare arrangements.

In London, the gates will reject most of the off peak tickets so you have to then go and queue up to get the excess. Ultimately, you quite likely won't get on a train if you don't have the right ticket.

But if there are a lot of ungated stations, I wonder how many people will just always get an off peak ticket and simply wait to be 'caught' and made to pay the excess. There's nothing to lose (besides a bit of time) and everything to gain.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can imagine the scenario of a family with children wanting to go to the seaside (for example) using the existing cheaper priced off-peak tickets. Do they now face the situation of either returning home much earlier, effectively cutting the day-out short or staying much later than envisaged and returning home far later than would be the case at the present time.

 

[185]

From a staff perspective, there are a lot of 'free' travel passes filling up seats during the PM peak. Whilst no-one wants to see the same situation as Merseyside in the 1990s where the elderly had to wait in rain and snow until 6.01pm to start their 'free' journey home, surely paying (off peak) customers should not be penalised whilst pensioners get off scot free.

I would suggest allowing half fare travel during both peaks to free pass holders, if leisure travellers are to be penalised.

I suspect the restrictions will likely be only for journeys departing the cities.