• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

Status
Not open for further replies.

hapt1n

Member
Joined
19 Oct 2014
Messages
22
I've heard via a reliable source a number of Scotrail Turbostars are being moved to Southern

Anybody know when and how many?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,681
ask your source ;)

Southern were after 14 coaches (7 units) and they hoped to get them by the end of 2015 but the last we heard was that was changed to "within the franchise period" and basically no one knew were they were gonna come from....

AFAIK Platform extension surveys on the uckfield line have already started and construction was due to start summer 2015 according to the updated CP5.
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
If Southern are after 7 units (14 cars) and Scotrail Turbostars are all 3 car units...

Is it likely that the 7 centre cars would remain with Scotrail and be used to strengthen retained turbostars to 4 car units?
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Instead of pratting about getting more diesel units just electrify the bloody route!
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,681
If Southern are after 7 units (14 cars) and Scotrail Turbostars are all 3 car units...

Is it likely that the 7 centre cars would remain with Scotrail and be used to strengthen retained turbostars to 4 car units?

well actually we were after 14 coaches.... i assumed the scotrail ones were 2 car but obviously im wrong...(to make 10 car services).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Instead of pratting about getting more diesel units just electrify the bloody route!

Apparantly there is a Network Rail consultancy on electrifying the North Downs, Uckfield and Ashford line next year.

Agree they should just do it. Its gonna be done eventually anyway, surely!
 
Last edited:

ScotGG

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2013
Messages
1,372
Instead of pratting about getting more diesel units just electrify the bloody route!

Exactly! Diesel units are required in so many places and none are being built, and Uckfield is a relatively easy third rail bit of in fill isn't it?
 

XCTurbostar

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2014
Messages
1,877
I'd be very surprised if this happens. Southern are not really at the bottom of the scale when it comes to being given modern rolling stock..

I would have liked the Two Coach 170s from CrossCountry to be sent to Southern instead giving CrossCountry a fleet of entirely 3 Coach 170s.
One can imagine a day..

Thanks,
Ross
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,414
Location
Salt & Vinegar
I've heard via a reliable source a number of Scotrail Turbostars are being moved to Southern

Anybody know when and how many?

Scotrail will have spare diesel units but not in the short term.

The DMUs freed by this summer's electrification will be used for strengthening and to cover Borders rail when it opens next year.

So you're looking at the first phase of Edinburgh - Glasgow electrification (Dec 2017), Introduction of HSTs on Scotrail Intercity routes (Dec 2018) or electrification to Dunblane/Alloa (Dec 2018).

Basically there will be lots of spare Scotrail DMUs but not for 3-4 years.
 

thealexweb

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2014
Messages
956
Scotrail will have spare diesel units but not in the short term.

The DMUs freed by this summer's electrification will be used for strengthening and to cover Borders rail when it opens next year.

So you're looking at the first phase of Edinburgh - Glasgow electrification (Dec 2017), Introduction of HSTs on Scotrail Intercity routes (Dec 2018) or electrification to Dunblane/Alloa (Dec 2018).

Basically there will be lots of spare Scotrail DMUs but not for 3-4 years.

If the lease is up the lease is up. Transpennine is losing its Turbostars against its will and its was already struggling desperately for rolling stock. In comparison, right now Scotrail has perhaps five DMUs that are surplus to capacity.
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
6,476
Location
Between Peterborough & Bedlington
If the lease is up the lease is up. Transpennine is losing its Turbostars against its will and its was already struggling desperately for rolling stock. In comparison, right now Scotrail has perhaps five DMUs that are surplus to capacity.

Give 'em to LM, get rid of the 150s used on the Brum-Hereford and Bedford-Bletchley routes. And chuck some 153s away while they're at it. It's all good!
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,681
Exactly! Diesel units are required in so many places and none are being built, and Uckfield is a relatively easy third rail bit of in fill isn't it?

23 miles of line i think. Expensive!!!!
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,262
Apparantly there is a Network Rail consultancy on electrifying the North Downs, Uckfield and Ashford line next year.

It's supposed to be a full rewrite of the 2009 'Electrification RUS' that is known to be due in 2015, with a revised set of priorities since the last one, given the amount of wiring already planned for in CP5 and into CP6. I think the routes you mention will only be a small part of the document.
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,681
http://www.courier.co.uk/end-line-c...tory-23260449-detail/story.html#ixzz3Ga79lXLE

very poorly written piece!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is it a bit cheaper as it's third rail?

im not sure third rail is cheaper to install? Its cheaper to maintain though.

Overhead AC has been mentioned ...probably just silly rumours though,

although according to a network rail guy who travelled in my cab a few weeks ago, if third rail was installed, miles and miles of new fencing would have to be put up to conform to regulations!
 
Last edited:

Chrisgr31

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
1,675
They could of course decide to electrify the Uckfield Line with overhead instead. Mind you it is quite handy having it diesel, its very easy to find the train at London Bridge and East Croydon!

Network Rail advised me in a tweet recently that the platforms will be extended by Nov 2016 which implies that the new stock may arrive in December 2016. However I am not sure that the stock which had been found for that time period is available now.

Whilst the Uckfield Line is a relative backwater I understand it is actually profitable and it would also reduce overcrowding on the BBL and Hastings line as well. Class 170s would of course be ideal as the current fleet is Class 171 so all that is required is a coupler change.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
im not sure third rail is cheaper to install? Its cheaper to maintain though.

Not really, OLE is very cheap to maintain as long as it is put up correctly.

But with third rail, track and signalling maintenance gets a whole lot more expensive.
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,681
They could of course decide to electrify the Uckfield Line with overhead instead. Mind you it is quite handy having it diesel, its very easy to find the train at London Bridge and East Croydon!

Network Rail advised me in a tweet recently that the platforms will be extended by Nov 2016 which implies that the new stock may arrive in December 2016. However I am not sure that the stock which had been found for that time period is available now.

Whilst the Uckfield Line is a relative backwater I understand it is actually profitable and it would also reduce overcrowding on the BBL and Hastings line as well. Class 170s would of course be ideal as the current fleet is Class 171 so all that is required is a coupler change.

It seems the scotrail 170s mentioned are off lease as of july 2015? Maybe wrong though.

Yeh its profitable and usage has increased massively since the DEMUs were replaced.

I know a few people from tunbridge wells and lewes areas use the uckfield line in the peak cos its cheaper.
 
Last edited:

clc

Established Member
Joined
31 Oct 2011
Messages
1,301
It seems the scotrail 170s mentioned are off lease as of july 2015? Maybe wrong though.
.

All leases for trains operating ScotRail services in Scotland will terminate at the end of the current franchise with the exception of the class 380s which are covered by a Section 54 agreement.
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,681
All leases for trains operating ScotRail services in Scotland will terminate at the end of the current franchise with the exception of the class 380s which are covered by a Section 54 agreement.

Ah ok, april 2015 then. Ta.
 

Chrisgr31

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
1,675
although according to a network rail guy who travelled in my cab a few weeks ago, if third rail was installed, miles and miles of new fencing would have to be put up to conform to regulations!

They have been replacing a lot of the fencing on the Uckfield line recently, certainly just been doing between Crowboroughand Eridge and I am sure I have seen them elsewhere as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It seems the scotrail 170s mentioned are off lease as of july 2015? Maybe wrong though.

Yeh its profitable and usage has increased massively since the DEMUs were replaced.

I know a few people from tunbridge wells and lewes areas use the uckfield line in the peak cos its cheaper.

However there are also still a lot of people from the Uckfield line catchment area that go via the BML or Hastings Lines because whilst its more expensive its a quicker service (not sure door to door necessarially is) but also there is a greater frequency of service.

At a Meet the Manager session 2 years ago Southern did say what percentage of Uckfield Line catchment area passengers currently use the other options and it was a lot.

I think it was Bald Rick who said that it is anticipated that when the trains are lengthened the overcrowding will soon be back.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
although according to a network rail guy who travelled in my cab a few weeks ago, if third rail was installed, miles and miles of new fencing would have to be put up to conform to regulations!

New security fencing is required with OHLE too.
Installed last year across Chat Moss through open fields.
 

ScotGG

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2013
Messages
1,372
20 miles of the stuff must be expensive!

We do go overboard in the UK which must push up costs on schemes to an extent some aren't done. I've used railways all over the world and none are obsessed with expensive (and ugly) fencing to the extent the UK is. I concede there is very often a need for fences but the UK goes overboard on the type used.
 

starrymarkb

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2009
Messages
5,985
Location
Exeter
We do go overboard in the UK which must push up costs on schemes to an extent some aren't done. I've used railways all over the world and none are obsessed with expensive (and ugly) fencing to the extent the UK is. I concede there is very often a need for fences but the UK goes overboard on the type used.

It's because UK law (dating back to the first railways) requires the track to be fenced, in other countries the law is the other way and if you have say animals that shouldn't be on the line it's your responsibility to fence them in. In the UK it's the railway's responsibility to fence them out.

Oh and DB are currently obsessed with acoustic walls. Noise Pollution is a political issue in Germany so railways and Autobahns are getting HS1 style high acoustic walls.
 
Last edited:

thelem

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2008
Messages
549
I don't see why the trains being 3-coach would need to be a problem, if anything it gives a little extra flexibility, and by the time you get to 6-coaches it makes no difference anyway.

--

I imagine 20 miles of security fencing, which is installed away from the running lines, costs peanuts compared to 20 miles of OHLE or 3rd rail.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
Would fencing be required anyway on any line (overhead, 3rd rail or diesel) if the average line speed is above a certain speed?
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
A lot of security fencing has been installed in the last few years to reduce trespass. However there has always been a requirement to have a better standard of fencing on third rail lines - this was the a reason why third rail EMUs weren't fitted with enhanced obstacle deflectors after Polmont.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top