Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[Starmill]

Yes. I've figured that out, but the ticket office staff may not see it that way.

 

[muz379]

TPE won't be bothered one jot - but what about the guard on the NR train? I've done it the other way without any problem loads of times, but if NR start to spot this anomaly they could become a bit awkward? But, as asked, is there anything to stop me?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is the ticket valid ? . yes then we cant really say anything about it . Regardless of my own personal views on tickets If its valid I have to accept it .
No doubt some guard will have reported the anomaly to someone in management who will be looking into it . But until the ticket is invalid I will continue to accept it .

As for buying a ticket to and from a station you dont intend to travel to - some might argue that is fraud as well

 

[Deerfold]

As for buying a ticket to and from a station you dont intend to travel to - some might argue that is fraud as well

So long as it's valid to start/finish short seems fine. If you start lying about what you're doing that might be different.

 

[table38]

As for buying a ticket to and from a station you dont intend to travel to - some might argue that is fraud as well

How could it be fraud when it is specifically permitted by the NCoC?

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket

 

[pemma]

And of course you might be doing Bolton-Manchester and then Manchester-Adlington later on, in which case an Adlington-Manchester return is what a sensible ticket clerk would recommend.

 

[muz379]

im aware the ticket is valid to use im not suggesting that . Just that some might view purchasing a ticket for a station you have no intention of traveling to differently from how you view it .

Just because the rules say you can do a particular thing does not mean that stretching them and erring on the boundaries of them cannot be against the spirit of them

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surely staff should be selling people the ticket most time-appropriate for their journey (off-peak/anytime) based on their outward leg only?....

Not exactly. The ticket office clerk needs to ascertain the cheapest valid through ticket for the journey, or journeys, being made. This includes return journeys.

If it did not include return journeys there would be no need to inform passengers of the return restrictions.

....All this "what time are you coming back?" bull and selling an Anytime ticket because the passenger says they might be coming back between 4 and 6 is wrong. Sell the off-peak ticket and tell them to get an excess to Anytime if necessary later.

As above, the clerk is suppose to offer the cheapest valid through ticket for the journey, or journeys, being made, they cannot do this without knowing what time the passenger is returning.

A mystery shopper (from Passenger Focus, ATOC, or a number of other parties) would fail a clerk if they just did as you suggest.

Further, the passenger may not want to queue up to buy an Excess Fare for the return journey, particularly if everyone is having to do the same and more particularly if their train is about to leave.

Also, if the question is not asked and the restrictions then noted, the passenger may then comment that they know they are coming back at peak time and a correction made (non-issue or excess fare), one of these takes longer than asking the question four or five times.

If a passenger genuinely doesn't know then a choice can be offered, the passenger can decide which they prefer and the appropriate ticket sold.

....It's either a training issue (staff not knowing off-peak validity) or, although I would hate to imagine it, the result of higher-up people telling staff to sell Anytime tickets to as many unsuspecting people as possible to raise more revenue. /cynicism

The latter is not true to my knowledge. I have not been asked/told to do it and I do not know of any staff that have been asked/told to do it.

As for the former, I don't have a problem with the restrictions and I didn't find out about them on this or any other forum.

How could it be fraud when it is specifically permitted by the NCoC?

Going by a dictionary definition, I guess it would depend on how the ticket was asked for.

 

[Howardh]

Right.
I've just returned from my local station and asked if I could buy an Adlington/Manchester evening return and get on at an intermediate station and the answer was (a) no, he can't sell me one but (b) If I already had one, bought on-line I suppose, then there's nothing he could think of to stop me doing just that - as pointed out above in an earlier post (thanks!).
I did explain that I intended to use this, well, loophole (??) to save a pound or so, but he just shrugged his shoulders.
Any "intermediate station" then means Blackrod, Horwich, Lostock, Bolton and I suppose even Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley.
watch out thought that the train you catch is scheduled to leave Adlington after 6.30pm so the evening return's valid on the train you are on, otherwise all this is null and void
Good day's work, that!

 

[table38]

Going by a dictionary definition, I guess it would depend on how the ticket was asked for.

Well I must then confess that on Saturday, I specifically bought a Stalybridge to Stockport cheap day return in the full knowledge that I had a hotel room booked in Manchester and I would not be returning to Stalybridge that night. Better call the BTP

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well I must then confess that on Saturday, I specifically bought a Stalybridge to Stockport cheap day return in the full knowledge that I had a hotel room booked in Manchester and I would not be returning to Stalybridge that night. Better call the BTP

Did you read what I wrote or did you just decide to be provocative?

 

[table38]

Did you read what I wrote or did you just decide to be provocative?

I'm still finding it difficult to understand how doing something specifically permitted in the NCoC could be "fraud". Hardly provocative!

I'll put two smileys on just to reinforce the fact that I'm trying to keep the discussion light-hearted

 

[Howardh]

If I buy a ticket now for tonight - Adlington/Manchester evening return, the National rail website re-directs me to the TPE booking page, and you buy the ticket and you have the option of collecting it from the ticket machine* at any of the stations listed, so that for me would be Bolton.
*Given not bought within 2 hrs of departure.

Here's the link to a quote given earlier http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf it's No. 16.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm still finding it difficult to understand how doing something specifically permitted in the NCoC could be "fraud". Hardly provocative!

I'll put two smileys on just to reinforce the fact that I'm trying to keep the discussion light-hearted

Just look up the definition and work it out from there. Tbh, it's only from a certain point of view imo, but you did ask....

 

[yorkie]

Right.
I've just returned from my local station and asked if I could buy an Adlington/Manchester evening return and get on at an intermediate station and the answer was (a) no, he can't sell me one but (b) If I already had one, bought on-line I suppose, then there's nothing he could think of to stop me doing just that - as pointed out above in an earlier post (thanks!).
I did explain that I intended to use this, well, loophole (??) to save a pound or so, but he just shrugged his shoulders.

Write to Northern explaining you experienced a franchise breach, and ask them to ensure their staff conform to the terms of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement (TSA).

Ask for a date by when they will be compliant with this franchise commitment.

If they do not provide an appropriate answer, report a franchise breach to Rowan Smith of the DfT as well as logging a complaint with Passenger Focus.

 

[Howardh]

Write to Northern explaining you experienced a franchise breach, and ask them to ensure their staff conform to the terms of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement (TSA).

Ask for a date by when they will be compliant with this franchise commitment.

If they do not provide an appropriate answer, report a franchise breach to Rowan Smith of the DfT as well as logging a complaint with Passenger Focus.

Can I have a link to this *Franchise Breach*? I've contacted "Watchdog" and need all the paperwork I can get r/e changing trains.

Meanwhile there's a facebook thread which I'd like people here on facebook to follow - it all starts kicking off under the "free wi-fi" thread. Enjoy!
https://www.facebook.com/northernrailorg?fref=ts

 

[bb21]

Right.
I've just returned from my local station and asked if I could buy an Adlington/Manchester evening return and get on at an intermediate station and the answer was (a) no, he can't sell me one but (b) If I already had one, bought on-line I suppose, then there's nothing he could think of to stop me doing just that - as pointed out above in an earlier post (thanks!).
I did explain that I intended to use this, well, loophole (??) to save a pound or so, but he just shrugged his shoulders.
Any "intermediate station" then means Blackrod, Horwich, Lostock, Bolton and I suppose even Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley.
watch out thought that the train you catch is scheduled to leave Adlington after 6.30pm so the evening return's valid on the train you are on, otherwise all this is null and void
Good day's work, that!

That is just asking for trouble. I have no idea what you expect to achieve by claiming that you wish to utilise a loophole. While it is incorrect for staff to refuse to sell the ticket, there is pretty much nought you can do if they refuse to sell it to you on the spot.

What I do in such a situation is simply say to the clerk, "I would like to go to Manchester on the next train, and come back to Adlington later today. Can I therefore have a return from Adlington to Manchester please?" I have never been refused a sale for the overdistance ticket, whether it is cheaper or not. This then places the onus on the ticket office clerk who will then look it up on the system and pick the most appropriate ticket. If they don't play ball and wants to quote the more expensive fare, you can then prompt them as to whether a cheaper fare existed, because that is what you saw online.

While this will not guarantee that you will be sold the ticket, it will reduce the likelihood of you running into problems by sending alarm bells ringing in their head from the moment "go".

This is a perfectly legitimate course of action in my eyes, provided that you stick to the terms and conditions of the ticket correctly. While I do not condone lying in general, as a means to obtaining the correct ticket if admitting what you are up to is likely to cause difficulties, I see no problems with that, provided that you use the ticket correctly.

Yes, I know you can complain afterwards if you run into problems, but how does that help you in the first place, that is, if you consider the time and effort invested in it is worth it, and if it will change anything at all? We don't live in an ideal world so staff can make mistakes or come up with rules which do not exist, so any approach which reduces the likelihood of problems occurring in the first place is welcome in my eyes.

That is, unless the objective of your trip to the ticket office was mystery shopping rather than genuinely wanting to make the trip.

 

[Howardh]

That is just asking for trouble. I have no idea what you expect to achieve by claiming that you wish to utilise a loophole. While it is incorrect for staff to refuse to sell the ticket, there is pretty much nought you can do if they refuse to sell it to you on the spot.

What I do in such a situation is simply say to the clerk, "I would like to go to Manchester on the next train, and come back to Adlington later today. Can I therefore have a return from Adlington to Manchester please?" I have never been refused a sale for the overdistance ticket, whether it is cheaper or not. This then places the onus on the ticket office clerk who will then look it up on the system and pick the most appropriate ticket. If they don't play ball and wants to quote the more expensive fare, you can then prompt them as to whether a cheaper fare existed, because that is what you saw online.

While this will not guarantee that you will be sold the ticket, it will reduce the likelihood of you running into problems by sending alarm bells ringing in their head from the moment "go".

This is a perfectly legitimate course of action in my eyes, provided that you stick to the terms and conditions of the ticket correctly. While I do not condone lying in general, as a means to obtaining the correct ticket if admitting what you are up to is likely to cause difficulties, I see no problems with that, provided that you use the ticket correctly.

Yes, I know you can complain afterwards if you run into problems, but how does that help you in the first place, that is, if you consider the time and effort invested in it is worth it, and if it will change anything at all? We don't live in an ideal world so staff can make mistakes or come up with rules which do not exist, so any approach which reduces the likelihood of problems occurring in the first place is welcome in my eyes.

That is, unless the objective of your trip to the ticket office was mystery shopping rather than genuinely wanting to make the trip.

I don't understand the last paragraph!

To be honest all I'm doing as a poor victim of Northern Fail is to spend all day finding a legal, legitimate and valid way to cicumnavigate their removal of the cheapest fare from my station.

The guy at the station told me exactly what I expected, whether or not he SHOULD sell me that particular ticket is now neither here nor there as I will simply buy it on the web and collect as and when. But if other passenegers show up at the station then I hope the cheapest legitimate ticket is offered. But the passenger will have to explain clearly the journey - and time - they sish to take and make sure they catch the train for which the ticket is valid (ie, for the Evening Return, any train that has left Adlington after 6,30pm wherever on it's route to Manchester you get on).

As mentioned before, I've done it loads of times before, asking at Horwich for a day return from Bolton/Windermere and hardly an eyebrow raised. That was for convenience, the Adlington ticket is purely to save about a quid. It's a loophole - no argument, but to me it's no different than them charging peak fares just because you have to change inside peak hours despite commencing out.

Finished for the day!

 

[Merseysider]

I don't understand the last paragraph!

To be honest all I'm doing as a poor victim of Northern Fail is to spend all day finding a legal, legitimate and valid way to cicumnavigate their removal of the cheapest fare from my station.

The guy at the station told me exactly what I expected, whether or not he SHOULD sell me that particular ticket is now neither here nor there as I will simply buy it on the web and collect as and when. But if other passenegers show up at the station then I hope the cheapest legitimate ticket is offered. But the passenger will have to explain clearly the journey - and time - they sish to take and make sure they catch the train for which the ticket is valid (ie, for the Evening Return, any train that has left Adlington after 6,30pm wherever on it's route to Manchester you get on).

As mentioned before, I've done it loads of times before, asking at Horwich for a day return from Bolton/Windermere and hardly an eyebrow raised. That was for convenience, the Adlington ticket is purely to save about a quid. It's a loophole - no argument, but to me it's no different than them charging peak fares just because you have to change inside peak hours despite commencing out.

Finished for the day!

It's not a loophole. It's a fare that undercuts the tickets Northern would like us to buy in the evening, nothing more, nothing less. Shouting about it and letting everybody know just means Northern will pressure TPE into removing it. If that's what you want then by all means continue.

 

[bb21]

I don't understand the last paragraph!

To be honest all I'm doing as a poor victim of Northern Fail is to spend all day finding a legal, legitimate and valid way to cicumnavigate their removal of the cheapest fare from my station.

The guy at the station told me exactly what I expected, whether or not he SHOULD sell me that particular ticket is now neither here nor there as I will simply buy it on the web and collect as and when. But if other passenegers show up at the station then I hope the cheapest legitimate ticket is offered. But the passenger will have to explain clearly the journey - and time - they sish to take and make sure they catch the train for which the ticket is valid (ie, for the Evening Return, any train that has left Adlington after 6,30pm wherever on it's route to Manchester you get on).

As mentioned before, I've done it loads of times before, asking at Horwich for a day return from Bolton/Windermere and hardly an eyebrow raised. That was for convenience, the Adlington ticket is purely to save about a quid. It's a loophole - no argument, but to me it's no different than them charging peak fares just because you have to change inside peak hours despite commencing out.

Finished for the day!

That last paragraph was simply to say that if your objective of the visit to the ticket office was mystery shopping, which is designed purely as a quality-control exercise, then none of the points I presented earlier apply, as you would want to find out whether clerks do things correctly (even if the requests are awkward) rather than maximise the chance of you getting the ticket you want.

You haven't done anything wrong, but as I explained, because we don't live in an ideal world, ticket office clerks do not always do the "right" thing. What we can do as people "in the know" is take approaches that maximise the probability of achieving our objectives (in this case, getting the cheaper ticket you want). It was clear to me that the approach you took could cause problems, but I appreciate that you may not have thought about it.

You know now, I hope.

 

[Howardh]

It's not a loophole. It's a fare that undercuts the tickets Northern would like us to buy in the evening, nothing more, nothing less. Shouting about it and letting everybody know just means Northern will pressure TPE into removing it. If that's what you want then by all means continue.

You are right - it isn't! It just feels like one. Would TPE buckle under pressure? As far as they are concerned, it's more passengers coming their way - although this ticket is valid on NR too. That ticket's there for a reason, to promote evening travel when otherwise passengers may think it's too expensive to be worthwhile.
After all, very few HAVE to travel by rail in the evenings. As long as NR can't force other companies to alter tickets, I can't see what TPE have to gain if they do?

ADDS Might be against competition laws too.

 

[Merseysider]

Let's just say TOCs don't always play by the rules. They've been known to collude before to the disadvantage of passengers and other TOCs. Look at what happened last time a song and dance was made about a cheap ticket - RGL. Its validity via Birmingham was swiftly withdrawn. Northern might just ring up TPE, complain it's losing them revenue, and all TPE have to do is apply a BoJ restriction to the Adlington ticket, or remove it entirely, and we're back to square one with sh*tty evening peak restrictions and nothing that gives us one over on Northern.

 

[Howardh]

That last paragraph was simply to say that if your objective of the visit to the ticket office was mystery shopping, which is designed purely as a quality-control exercise, then none of the points I presented earlier apply, as you would want to find out whether clerks do things correctly (even if the requests are awkward) rather than maximise the chance of you getting the ticket you want.

You haven't done anything wrong, but as I explained, because we don't live in an ideal world, ticket office clerks do not always do the "right" thing. What we can do as people "in the know" is take approaches that maximise the probability of achieving our objectives (in this case, getting the cheaper ticket you want). It was clear to me that the approach you took could cause problems, but I appreciate that you may not have thought about it.

You know now, I hope.

OK! I didn't go down today to buy a ticket, I just parked up and made the query; just like I would if the question was "Wha day do the timetables change?" Not trying to catch the guy out! It was obvious that this question hadn't been asked before, and he did look up the possible permutations of tickets and agreed it would be cheaper. He said he couldn't sell me the ticket - I didn't question that; it could be that the ticket machine isn't programmed for it (?), that his company won't allow the sale, he's not sure so he's erring on the side of safety or simply the ticket can't be bought before 6.30pm.

But I got the info I wanted that the journey was certainly possible. Basically, 5-stars for service that man!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let's just say TOCs don't always play by the rules. They've been known to collude before to the disadvantage of passengers and other TOCs. Look at what happened last time a song and dance was made about a cheap ticket - RGL. Its validity via Birmingham was swiftly withdrawn. Northern might just ring up TPE, complain it's losing them revenue, and all TPE have to do is apply a BoJ restriction to the Adlington ticket, or remove it entirely, and we're back to square one with sh*tty evening peak restrictions and nothing that gives us one over on Northern.

The No. 8 Bus Bolton to Manchester - tee hee! Even after midnight last time I was on it was only £3 and a cheaper taxi home from the bus station rather than rail!!

But I think Bolton is stitched up anyway by the railways - I don't know if this is an urban myth or genually true, but no fast through non-stop buses/coaches are allowed to do Bolton-Manchester to protect railway revenue. Goes back years, I believe.

 

[Deerfold]

But I think Bolton is stitched up anyway by the railways - I don't know if this is an urban myth or genually true, but no fast through non-stop buses/coaches are allowed to do Bolton-Manchester to protect railway revenue. Goes back years, I believe.

I'd be very surprised if any restrictions like that one survived bus deregulation in 1986.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You are right - it isn't! It just feels like one. Would TPE buckle under pressure? As far as they are concerned, it's more passengers coming their way - although this ticket is valid on NR too. That ticket's there for a reason, to promote evening travel when otherwise passengers may think it's too expensive to be worthwhile.
After all, very few HAVE to travel by rail in the evenings. As long as NR can't force other companies to alter tickets, I can't see what TPE have to gain if they do?

ADDS Might be against competition laws too.

I don't think TPE would change it if there were more than twice as many travellers from Adlington (than there would be without it) and maybe a handful of people from Bolton and Horwich using it, but as soon as it becomes common knowledge that it is cheaper from the latter two and start buying it on a regular basis, TPE will notice a fall in revenue and then it will be in their interests to scrap it, even without Northern asking about it.

So if you want to keep using this cheaper fare the best thing to do is keep quiet, don't cause a ruckus and hope no-one else notices.

 

[Merseysider]

The No. 8 Bus Bolton to Manchester - tee hee! Even after midnight last time I was on it was only £3 and a cheaper taxi home from the bus station rather than rail!!

But I think Bolton is stitched up anyway by the railways - I don't know if this is an urban myth or genually true, but no fast through non-stop buses/coaches are allowed to do Bolton-Manchester to protect railway revenue. Goes back years, I believe.

As much as I hate travelling by bus, if I had to get to Bolton in the peak that's probably the way I'd go (get a bus day ticket). It's a whopping £7.20 from my local station (MAU). The 142 etc are also good value at £1 into town, and are covered by a day ticket. I particularly liked your Jeremy Paxman comment on the Facebook thread unsurprisingly, the entire thread about wifi at Bolton is full of people complaining about how crap Northern are and how unfair their new restrictions are

 

[Howardh]

I don't think TPE would change it if there were more than twice as many travellers from Adlington (than there would be without it) and maybe a handful of people from Bolton and Horwich using it, but as soon as it becomes common knowledge that it is cheaper from the latter two and start buying it on a regular basis, TPE will notice a fall in revenue and then it will be in their interests to scrap it, even without Northern asking about it.

So if you want to keep using this cheaper fare the best thing to do is keep quiet, don't cause a ruckus and hope no-one else notices.

People will begin to notice, word gets around quickly these days, not just for the night fare but also it's a way round the afternoon peak restrictions - that's where all the majority of passengers will - for want of a better word - convenience themselves with back-stationing, We need a word for it!

TPE won't see any extra passengers from Adlington, Entwistle and the like, more tickets sold with their station on BUT the passengers will, in the main, simply board at Bolton.

Eventually they will see what's happening but that puts NR between the Devil and - do they admit they were wrong in the first place by saying "only a few passengers will be affected" when clearly if people station-shift by large enough numbers for it to be a problem - do they then insist outside boundary stations are included in the restrictions (but then Passengers from those stations are (a) up in arms and (b) will simply backtrack their ticket to a non-peak station) or do they simply get the DfT British Rail (whoever?) to change regulation 16 either up here (and where are the boundaries) or nationwide?

Hornet's nest. Not the passenger's fault.
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As much as I hate travelling by bus, if I had to get to Bolton in the peak that's probably the way I'd go (get a bus day ticket). It's a whopping £7.20 from my local station (MAU). The 142 etc are also good value at £1 into town, and are covered by a day ticket. I particularly liked your Jeremy Paxman comment on the Facebook thread unsurprisingly, the entire thread about wifi at Bolton is full of people complaining about how crap Northern are and how unfair their new restrictions are

I thank you JakeF and I hope I've gained a *Like*!! Is MAU Mauldeth road?

 

[Starmill]

That ticket is almost certainly to be withdrawn, Howard, given how much you've shouted about it and drawn attention to it. It will be there one day and gone the next I assure you, and there's not likely to be any consequences nor recourse to Northern. So don't kid yourself. Northern are playing fast and lose with their customers here, so simply adopt my model of dealing with the railway industry, who are effectively holding us all to ransom - take what you can, give nothing back.

 

[fowler9]

That ticket is almost certainly to be withdrawn, Howard, given how much you've shouted about it and drawn attention to it. It will be there one day and gone the next I assure you, and there's not likely to be any consequences nor recourse to Northern. So don't kid yourself. Northern are playing fast and lose with their customers here, so simply adopt my model of dealing with the railway industry, who are effectively holding us all to ransom - take what you can, give nothing back.

Ha ha. Spot on. As a regular Northern Rail user I have had many a staff member tell me a way I could do my journey cheaper. I would like to think it was because they are genuinely public spirited people who are good at their job and do me a favour because I am always polite to them and always buy a ticket (Unless I am using my Trio in relevant areas). TPE staff have done me the same favour. On one occasion when I was on the dole a staff member of a TOC paid for my ticket and put the difference in themselves and told me to pay them next time. Next time I had the money I went to pay him and he wouldn't take the money. That man has my enduring respect. I don't know if I will ever get the chance to repay him but I try and pay it forwards anyway. I love the staff on the ground.

 

[muz379]

That ticket is almost certainly to be withdrawn, Howard, given how much you've shouted about it and drawn attention to it. It will be there one day and gone the next I assure you, and there's not likely to be any consequences nor recourse to Northern. So don't kid yourself. Northern are playing fast and lose with their customers here, so simply adopt my model of dealing with the railway industry, who are effectively holding us all to ransom - take what you can, give nothing back.

Just out of interest what methods of recourse would you like against a toc that in the face of loosing subsidy from the DFT has done what it has had to do and raise revenue ?

 

[Howardh]

That ticket is almost certainly to be withdrawn, Howard, given how much you've shouted about it and drawn attention to it. It will be there one day and gone the next I assure you, and there's not likely to be any consequences nor recourse to Northern. So don't kid yourself. Northern are playing fast and lose with their customers here, so simply adopt my model of dealing with the railway industry, who are effectively holding us all to ransom - take what you can, give nothing back.

Yes, but will they go on to prevent the methodology of buying your peak ticket from a station outside the zone and getting on the train within the zone? It's perfectly legal and valid an I will be doing that as a matter of course.

To alter that, as I've posted before, will mean either pushing the peak-zone boundaries fruther back or altering the whole countrys Conditions of Carriage, particulary point 16.

And, remember, in NR's words "the changes won't affect many" so if it's such a small number, why bother? Or have NR been telling porkies??