East Coast franchise discussion (Previously: Rumour VT/Stagecoach to win)

[WatcherZero]

Until they selected a preferred bidder any rumours are just that, rumours.

 

[baza585]

In actual fact there have never been differential line speeds for tilt between Oxford and Banbury. There was a high profile publicity campaign involving Branson himself when the first official tilting voyager ran over the route, but few people realised the train didn't actually go any faster than the non-tilting variety. There was as I recall an HST speed differential however which all the voyagers could exploit.

Branson and Virgin spin something that didn't really exist? Surely not!

 

[3141]

Until they selected a preferred bidder any rumours are just that, rumours.

If the decision is to be announced by the end of this month, then by now, within the DfT, it must be pretty clear who will be the selected bidder. (Unless two, or maybe even three, are very close, and the final decision will depend on how they respond to last-minute issues.) So at this time a rumour might have some substance to it, since there will be at least a handful of people who know the direction the selection is taking.

On the other hand, if the reports that it may be X or Y come from someone who isn't in the know, then they would still be just speculative rumours.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not that you're bitter or envious or anything like that.

I seriously dislike Branson and Souter- the latter particularly, due to his homophobia- but that doesn't mean I'm "bitter or envious".

I want it to be Eurostar, I think it will be First, but that's a gut feeling not insight. I'm no more informed than most of the people speculating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I want it to be Eurostar

I really don't. Eurostar is a scruffy, can't be bothered type operation. Most UK mainline operations are that bit better.

I don't overly mind which of the other two it is. There's an argument for First in that that means all the IEP implementation will be done by one company. There's an argument for Stagecoach in that they are operationally better in my experience (Virgin is likely just the branding, it will I expect be more like EMT in red and silver than VT proper).

Neil

 

[Suraggu]

I really don't. Eurostar is a scruffy, can't be bothered type operation. Most UK mainline operations are that bit better.

I don't overly mind which of the other two it is. There's an argument for First in that that means all the IEP implementation will be done by one company. There's an argument for Stagecoach in that they are operationally better in my experience (Virgin is likely just the branding, it will I expect be more like EMT in red and silver than VT proper).

Neil

But then makes it easier to implement IEP, depending on layouts internally specified by each TOC.

 

[Robertj21a]

I really don't. Eurostar is a scruffy, can't be bothered type operation. Most UK mainline operations are that bit better.

I don't overly mind which of the other two it is. There's an argument for First in that that means all the IEP implementation will be done by one company. There's an argument for Stagecoach in that they are operationally better in my experience (Virgin is likely just the branding, it will I expect be more like EMT in red and silver than VT proper).

Neil

Surely, Stagecoach is the one most likely to provide the best quality operation ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are they? The on-board provision on East Midlands Trains is diabolical.

 

[gordonthemoron]

and EMT colourscheme is migraine inducing

 

[RichmondCommu]

Are they? The on-board provision on East Midlands Trains is diabolical.

In my experience the on board provision for all the TOC's doesn't seem to be that popular. It's much cheaper to buy your own provisions before you board the train and I think my travellers have realised this. Hence the cutting back of the Travelling Chef etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

and EMT colourscheme is migraine inducing

Has that been medically proven? I'm a regular user of EMT and yet I couldn't tell you what the interior looks like. In fact I'd struggle to describe the external look of the trains!

 

[Tetchytyke]

In my experience the on board provision for all the TOC's doesn't seem to be that popular.

I said EMT's service was appalling, I didn't say anything about popularity.

East Coast currently offer a fully stocked buffet car and complimentary food and drink in first class.

East Midlands Trains offer a rubbish Rail Gourmet trolley in standard class and tea and coffee in first class.

The idea of getting EMT-quality service on East Coast is not a good one.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if there will one day be a near U-turn as places at stations get ever more expensive, as Network Rail bump up rents and the likes of SSP decides to ditch Upper Crust to make way for cheaper to manage places (I'd expect) like Pumpkin that favours more basic (but still expensive) sandwiches that keep longer, confectionary, the odd muffin and expensive coffee?

Unless you know where there's a Tesco Express or similar nearby, it might just one day be more convenient to just get something on the train as it won't be any more expensive and you can then save carrying food/drink on the train with your other stuff - and have a nice hot tea or coffee (or ice cold drink) later on if you prefer.

 

[Robertj21a]

I said EMT's service was appalling, I didn't say anything about popularity.

East Coast currently offer a fully stocked buffet car and complimentary food and drink in first class.

East Midlands Trains offer a rubbish Rail Gourmet trolley in standard class and tea and coffee in first class.

The idea of getting EMT-quality service on East Coast is not a good one.

I was talking about overall quality of service - where Stagecoach is likely to be amongst the best. Food and drink is a minor issue (to me) as I buy what I need before I travel.

 

[3141]

I said EMT's service was appalling, I didn't say anything about popularity.
East Midlands Trains offer a rubbish Rail Gourmet trolley in standard class and tea and coffee in first class.

The idea of getting EMT-quality service on East Coast is not a good one.

That seems to assume that Brian Souter or someone very senior in Stagecoach decides what sort of catering service should be provided in train services where they hold the franchise.

More likely they leave such matters to the franchise management, taking into account the nature of the routes.

It IS possible that in their bid for East Coast they will have proposed different catering arrangements from the current ones. So may other bidders.

I think Rail Gourmet operate the trolleys on SWT. What's "rubbish" about them - or alternatively, what do you think they should offer on a trolley?

 

[Iskra]

I wonder if there will one day be a near U-turn as places at stations get ever more expensive, as Network Rail bump up rents and the likes of SSP decides to ditch Upper Crust to make way for cheaper to manage places (I'd expect) like Pumpkin that favours more basic (but still expensive) sandwiches that keep longer, confectionary, the odd muffin and expensive coffee?

Unless you know where there's a Tesco Express or similar nearby, it might just one day be more convenient to just get something on the train as it won't be any more expensive and you can then save carrying food/drink on the train with your other stuff - and have a nice hot tea or coffee (or ice cold drink) later on if you prefer.

The rise of M&S food etc must be causing the TOC's problems. There's one at Euston and it's far cheaper to stock up there than buy anything on the train, and it's decent quality. This must really affect VT's takings. I think a lot of the big Network Rail stations have M&S's so it must be really abstractive from TOC's revenues.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I said EMT's service was appalling, I didn't say anything about popularity.

East Coast currently offer a fully stocked buffet car and complimentary food and drink in first class.

East Midlands Trains offer a rubbish Rail Gourmet trolley in standard class and tea and coffee in first class.

The idea of getting EMT-quality service on East Coast is not a good one.

In which case ask yourself why EMT decided to close the shop on it's services. I would suggest that they did that because the shop wasn't making enough money. It doesn't take long for regular travelers to realise that its much cheaper to buy provisions before you get on the train.

East Coast might well offer a fully stocked buffet car but how do the prices compare against the alternatives? How well patronised is it? Does it make any money? I would suggest that it is likely to go the same way as the Travelling Chef if First get hold of it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The rise of M&S food etc must be causing the TOC's problems. There's one at Euston and it's far cheaper to stock up there than buy anything on the train, and it's decent quality. This must really affect VT's takings. I think a lot of the big Network Rail stations have M&S's so it must be really abstractive from TOC's revenues.

Exactly. And if you look at the number of fast food places close to stations (especially say on the Euston Road) it's often to cheaper to go there first.

 

[ryan125hst]

East Coast might well offer a fully stocked buffet car but how do the prices compare against the alternatives? How well patronised is it? Does it make any money?

I wouldn't say it's fully stocked! I traveled with my parents and sister from Retford to London at the end of July 2013. Despite boarding the train at 12:39 (ex York at 12:01), there were very few sandwiches on the train. My sister was the only one who had a sandwich in the end- the rest of us had a toastie which cost considerably more. Needless to say, we bought lunch from a Sainsbury's local that was down the road from our hotel before the return journey!

With that in mind, I do wonder if more passengers would buy food on board if the choice and availability was improved. I've looked back at some old GNER menus and I'm sure they used to offer burgers and soup at one point, maybe even pizzas? (not 100% sure about the latter). Also, even standard class passengers used to be able to have a meal in the restaurant car- it wasn't cheap, but it was high standard and the reviews I've seen online spoke highly of it, so I'm guessing it was popular? If you have tried buying on the train only to be faced with a few sandwiches you don't like and end up paying a fortune for it, you won't bother again. If a wide range of good food can be offered for a good price, more people will buy on board. Sure, it will cost more to provide that service, but even if the profits are less per item sold, if many more people buy on board, it will probably be more profitable overall.

I think that the new franchisee either needs to improve the catering option or knock the idea of the buffet car on it's head and just provide a trolley service of hot and cold drinks and snacks. The current offering isn't good enough in my opinion.

 

[harz99]

Neither InterCity East Coast, nor its successor GNER made money from their restaurant or buffet cars. They were always seen as "added value" and at best some covered their costs.

 

[ryan125hst]

Neither InterCity East Coast, nor its successor GNER made money from their restaurant or buffet cars. They were always seen as "added value" and at best some covered their costs.

Maybe this is one of the biggest problems of a franchised rail network- profits. It's alight if you're only on the train for an hour or so, but if you're travelling from Edinburgh to London, the ability to buy a sandwich or a hot snack on board would improve the experience for passengers greatly. Being able to buy a full English breakfast or a full meal even more so. The problem is that nobody seems to be able to offer something to passengers for the sake of providing a service and making their journey more pleasant and enjoyable anymore unless it can earn them a fortune. :roll:

 

[jon0844]

The rise of M&S food etc must be causing the TOC's problems. There's one at Euston and it's far cheaper to stock up there than buy anything on the train, and it's decent quality. This must really affect VT's takings. I think a lot of the big Network Rail stations have M&S's so it must be really abstractive from TOC's revenues.

But aren't Waitrose and M&S stores at stations run by SSP and more expensive than the ordinary stores? I'm pretty sure prices are higher, if not on all things on a lot of things?

In other words, you'd still be better off venturing outside - but the hope (and likely reality) is that most people won't do that.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I wouldn't say it's fully stocked! I traveled with my parents and sister from Retford to London at the end of July 2013. Despite boarding the train at 12:39 (ex York at 12:01), there were very few sandwiches on the train. My sister was the only one who had a sandwich in the end- the rest of us had a toastie which cost considerably more. Needless to say, we bought lunch from a Sainsbury's local that was down the road from our hotel before the return journey!

In all fairness Ryan it was Arctic Troll who suggested that the buffet car was fully stocked! However your observations do not surprise me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But aren't Waitrose and M&S stores at stations run by SSP and more expensive than the ordinary stores? I'm pretty sure prices are higher, if not on all things on a lot of things?

Waitrose and M&S are expensive anyway! And to be fair, M&S Food was the cheapest place to obtain a 500ml bottle of soft drink at Euston until the very useful Sainsbury's Local appeared outside.

Neil

 

[jon0844]

Maybe this is one of the biggest problems of a franchised rail network- profits. It's alight if you're only on the train for an hour or so, but if you're travelling from Edinburgh to London, the ability to buy a sandwich or a hot snack on board would improve the experience for passengers greatly. Being able to buy a full English breakfast or a full meal even more so. The problem is that nobody seems to be able to offer something to passengers for the sake of providing a service and making their journey more pleasant and enjoyable anymore unless it can earn them a fortune. :roll:

I don't know how German Intercity trains are funded, or indeed what the service used to be like years ago and might be in the years to come - but on my trip, there was the ability to buy quite a large selection of hot food, drinks and snacks (including kids meals with comic books, pens and a little plastic ICE3 train) on every journey.

We even had the food delivered to our seat, although I'm not sure that's normal or whether it was just that we'd ordered quite a bit (5 of us).

 

[RichmondCommu]

But aren't Waitrose and M&S stores at stations run by SSP and more expensive than the ordinary stores? I'm pretty sure prices are higher, if not on all things on a lot of things?

In other words, you'd still be better off venturing outside - but the hope (and likely reality) is that most people won't do that.

Yes they are more expensive than say Tesco Metro but they are still cheaper than buying stuff on the train. Why people pay through the nose to purchase snacks on the train is beyond me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As regard buffet cars, though, there have been journeys on which I would happily pay through the nose for a decent meal, either a "posh" restaurant car one, or a DB-style microwaved-but-on-a-proper-plate Bistrowagen one. But in a traditional buffet car the thing I'm most likely to buy is a coffee, and even then only on a journey of over an hour by which time the one I bought before boarding has been finished.

The annoyance comes when departing from a station like Ulverston where there is no coffee sales facility nearby nor on the station, and none on the train on a Sunday either.

Neil

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes they are more expensive than say Tesco Metro but they are still cheaper than buying stuff on the train. Why people pay through the nose to purchase snacks on the train is beyond me.

For the same reason people buy petrol at Motorway service stations.

 

[RichmondCommu]

For the same reason people buy petrol at Motorway service stations.

Exactly, it makes no sense! It would have to be one heck of a motorway journey (and a very thirsty car) to use a whole tank of fuel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly, it makes no sense! It would have to be one heck of a motorway journey (and a very thirsty car) to use a whole tank of fuel.

You have time, or you have money. Most people are not fortunate enough to have both. (Some effectively have neither, e.g. single parents and the likes, and are particularly unfortunate in that regard)

Neil

 

[RichmondCommu]

You have time, or you have money. Most people are not fortunate enough to have both. (Some effectively have neither, e.g. single parents and the likes, and are particularly unfortunate in that regard)

Neil

I concur. However you have money by being careful with it! With regard to single parents (for which I have a great deal of time and sympathy) money always gives you options but sadly single parents all too often have very few options.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why people pay through the nose to purchase snacks on the train is beyond me.

It depends where you are going and how long your journey will be. I'll normally buy snacks in advance, but buying a cup of tea in advance isn't really possible. Not for a four hour train journey anyway.

The problem is that nobody seems to be able to offer something to passengers for the sake of providing a service and making their journey more pleasant and enjoyable anymore unless it can earn them a fortune.

They are businesses and they won't offer things that don't attract custom.

The restaurant car on EC was good but it was also horrifically expensive. Apart from on a couple of early evening trains out of London take-up was low. It's the same with Pullman Dining on FGW, you're looking at sixty quid a head minimum for a meal.

The restaurant car went to develop the first class complimentary offer, which works better for most customers, and for the TOC.

And if you think the EC buffet counter is "badly stocked", you should see what passes for a selection on a Rail Gourmet trolley.

In which case ask yourself why EMT decided to close the shop on it's services. I would suggest that they did that because the shop wasn't making enough money. It doesn't take long for regular travelers to realise that its much cheaper to buy provisions before you get on the train

Given that the buffet car remains in place, and given that EMT operate the buffet car on weekends, I think it was simply to transfer the revenue risk to Rail Gourmet. A cost cutting exercise, no more and no less. The same sort of Stagecoach penny-pinching that gave us the South West Trains drivers' crisis of 1997.