• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TFL Travelcard and Capping Changes

Status
Not open for further replies.

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
Yes, the clue is in the name.

The group must travel together at all times.

The obvious solution is that from now on everyone buys a group ticket, and when checked you just say the person(s) next to you are part of the group!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,751
Location
Epsom
Could someone please clarify for me:

If I were to buy a one day Travelcard from Ewell West after the changes next month, would it be a full day card only or will an off peak day card still be available from there?

Oyster will soon be available at Epsom - while Epsom is still outside the zones will the same new capping limits apply, meaning they've effectively put the fares from Epsom up by quite a considerable percentage?
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
7,865
Location
Crayford
Could someone please clarify for me:

If I were to buy a one day Travelcard from Ewell West after the changes next month, would it be a full day card only or will an off peak day card still be available from there?
I'm pretty sure it will be an all-day version, unless you want to use a railcard which would only then be valid in line with the railcard conditions. Can't be 100% certain at this stage. As far as Oyster goes it looks like off-peak caps will still exist but be priced the same for normal adults.

Oyster will soon be available at Epsom - while Epsom is still outside the zones will the same new capping limits apply, meaning they've effectively put the fares from Epsom up by quite a considerable percentage?

I'm not sure how Oyster will work at Epsom. However, zones 7-9 and all outside stations still have different off-peak caps so unless Epsom gets put in zone 6 I'd imagine it will stay the same.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,751
Location
Epsom
Thanks, so basically if you buy within the zones, it's the peak one only ( even if sold after 09.30? ) buy outside the zones the off peak day version is still available?

Yet a railcard holder ( only ) can still buy the off peak version.

So if Epsom gets put in zone 6 ( or whatever ) we will get an instant 35% or thereabouts fares rise for the travelcard?

Have I got that right?
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,530
I'm pretty sure it will be an all-day version, unless you want to use a railcard which would only then be valid in line with the railcard conditions. Can't be 100% certain at this stage. As far as Oyster goes it looks like off-peak caps will still exist but be priced the same for normal adults.

I'm not sure how Oyster will work at Epsom. However, zones 7-9 and all outside stations still have different off-peak caps so unless Epsom gets put in zone 6 I'd imagine it will stay the same.

The changes to reduce the peak Oyster cap do not apply to paper tickets.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/new-fares-for-2015?intcmp=23318#on-this-page-5

The Zones 1-2 Anytime Day Travelcard will be withdrawn
The Zones 1-4 Anytime Day Travelcard will increase from £11.40 to £12 (adult) and from £5.70 to £6 (child)
The Zones 1-6 Anytime Day Travelcard (adult and child) will be frozen

A peak travelcard from Ewell West will cost £17. An off-peak travelcard will cost £12. For Oyster, the all day 1-6 cap will be £11.70 regardless of the time of travel.

All set out here http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/national-rail-railcard-fares.xlsx for railcard holders and here http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/national-rail-adult-fares.xlsx for non-railcard holders
 
Last edited:

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
Yes, the clue is in the name.

The group must travel together at all times.

Although, like with the current Group Day Ticket, if one person is in possession of all of the group tickets then they may travel alone on LU services. I cannot say whether the Tocs will follow such a common sense approach or not.
 

GodAtum

On Moderation
Joined
11 Dec 2009
Messages
2,633
I dont think this affects people who buy 1st class tickets as thye are still paper only?
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
The changes to reduce the peak Oyster cap do not apply to paper tickets.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/new-fares-for-2015?intcmp=23318#on-this-page-5



A peak travelcard from Ewell West will cost £17. An off-peak travelcard will cost £12. For Oyster, the all day 1-6 cap will be £11.70 regardless of the time of travel.

All set out here http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/national-rail-railcard-fares.xlsx for railcard holders and here http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/national-rail-adult-fares.xlsx for non-railcard holders

I thought I understood the changes, although this information appears to confirm that I do not. Sigh.

Maybe I will just stop coming to London, buying an Epsom (or wherever) travelcard instead of an ordinary one is just counter-intuitive and I'll never be sure if I've got a good deal or not. There's a very low chance of me being able to make the journeys I normally do without breaking Oyster and ending up with some sort of maximum charge that then has to be resolved.

TfL's attitude appears to be 'if you aren't using Oyster or contactless (no railcard discounts THERE I note) we want to stop you, or at least make life as difficult as possible.'
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
TfL's attitude appears to be 'if you aren't using Oyster or contactless (no railcard discounts THERE I note) we want to stop you, or at least make life as difficult as possible.'

TfL's objective has long been to 'encourage' people to switch to Oyster!
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
TfL's objective has long been to 'encourage' people to switch to Oyster!

So the balls are all in their court, and we have much less control over what we pay - in the guise of 'cheapest single fares' - note that this isn't the same thing as the actual cheapest fare for your journey?
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,323
Location
Stirlingshire
TfL's objective has long been to 'encourage' people to switch to Oyster!

I prefer a paper ticket - unless it's a lot cheaper.

Is there an Oyster Travelcard ? or it's equivalent

Even £12 for a zones 1-6 Off Peak is still quite reasonable - I will get my moneys worth out of it :p
 

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,674
Location
Nowhere Heath
Just found out (thanks to the thread Butts posted and bb21's link to this one, which I'll read asap) about the massive hike in ching for a Zones 1-6 Travelcard, I must say that I'm outraged and now considering less London trips next year than I had lined up :(
 

Shimbleshanks

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,020
Location
Purley
I'm seething about this. I invested £30 in a Network Card in September in the expectation that I would be able to use it to get 1/3 off the Z1-6 one-day card price at weekends (currently reducing a £8.90 card to £5.90). I've used it about five times this year to reduce the £8.90 1-day offpeak card down to £5.90 and was banking on using it for the remaining 9 months of its validity.

But with the changes, I would want to seriously rethink my travel habits as I really don't fancy paying £8 just for a Saturday out in London so I'd either cycle, take the car or just not go into London as much as before. But it means I'll probably never recoup my £30 investment in my Network Card.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,978
A Network Railcard discounted travelcard at the weekend increases from £5.90 to £7.90. Admittedly a 33% increase is far from ideal but is a £2 increase really something worth seething about?
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,323
Location
Stirlingshire
A Network Railcard discounted travelcard at the weekend increases from £5.90 to £7.90. Admittedly a 33% increase is far from ideal but is a £2 increase really something worth seething about?

At least Shimbleshanks has not got to pay £12 :cry:
 

IanD

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2011
Messages
2,718
Location
Newport Pagnell
I'm seething about this. I invested £30 in a Network Card in September in the expectation that I would be able to use it to get 1/3 off the Z1-6 one-day card price at weekends (currently reducing a £8.90 card to £5.90). I've used it about five times this year to reduce the £8.90 1-day offpeak card down to £5.90 and was banking on using it for the remaining 9 months of its validity.

But with the changes, I would want to seriously rethink my travel habits as I really don't fancy paying £8 just for a Saturday out in London so I'd either cycle, take the car or just not go into London as much as before. But it means I'll probably never recoup my £30 investment in my Network Card.

I'm seething and I only paid £1 for my Network Railcard! And I'll have to pay £10 for it next year - that's a whopping 900% increase.
 

CyrusWuff

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
3,944
Location
London
I'm seething and I only paid £1 for my Network Railcard! And I'll have to pay £10 for it next year - that's a whopping 900% increase.

Considering the Partner's Card has been £1 for at least 15 years, probably more, it could be argued that it's long since overdue...
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
A Network Railcard discounted travelcard at the weekend increases from £5.90 to £7.90. Admittedly a 33% increase is far from ideal but is a £2 increase really something worth seething about?

£2 on how many occasions? Sounds like he will want to use it ~15 times in the coming 9 months if it has been used 5 in the previous 3. That's £30!

I'm in the same boat, but I have my railcard regardless of this. Although of course money can be saved by buying an Epsom Southern Only Travelcard...
 

theageofthetra

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,504
Just to clarify re the Epsom Southern only ticket- If my mate was to buy this from his local station (Hampton Wick/Teddington) with his Network Railcard- it would cost £6.90 & as he is only using the z1-6 element can use it on local buses & trains?
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
15,979
Location
0036
Yes. Southern Only route on a Travelcard serves only to restrict the routes which can be used outside the London zones.
 

simple simon

Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
650
Location
Suburban London
It seems that contactless passengers won't benefit from a discount if using it to buy Boarding Passes on the Emirates dangle way in east London.

I say this because the TfL website says that the discounted rate requires production of an Oyster card, Travelcard or Freedom Pass.

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/new-fares-for-2015?intcmp=23318#on-this-page-6

Admittedly I won't lose out, as I have no desire to use this, but it is interesting to see that the 15h is not the only place where contactless is still inferior to Oyster.

Or does that TfL page not tell the whole story?

Simon
 

Shimbleshanks

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,020
Location
Purley
A Network Railcard discounted travelcard at the weekend increases from £5.90 to £7.90. Admittedly a 33% increase is far from ideal but is a £2 increase really something worth seething about?
Yes it is - I can't think of much else that has shot up by 25% lately. If the price of a cheap loaf in Tesco went up from 45p to 56p, you'd go to Aldi instead, wouldn't you?

Given that I've got good alternatives like cycling (free and not that much slower door to door than the train) or car (the cost in petrol is now quite a bit lower than the travelcard price) I certainly will vote with my feet...
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,569
Location
Yorkshire
Yes it is - I can't think of much else that has shot up by 25% lately. If the price of a cheap loaf in Tesco went up from 45p to 56p, you'd go to Aldi instead, wouldn't you?

Given that I've got good alternatives like cycling (free and not that much slower door to door than the train) or car (the cost in petrol is now quite a bit lower than the travelcard price) I certainly will vote with my feet...

If you can get to Central London and travel around all day for less than the cost of a Travelcard then good luck to you.
 

Shimbleshanks

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,020
Location
Purley
£2 on how many occasions? Sounds like he will want to use it ~15 times in the coming 9 months if it has been used 5 in the previous 3. That's £30!

I'm in the same boat, but I have my railcard regardless of this. Although of course money can be saved by buying an Epsom Southern Only Travelcard...

Exactly. I bought by Network Card on the expectation that I'd be getting £5.90 travelcards at the weekend for nine months in 2015 - but I really don't fancy paying £8 and will make other arrangements - which means writing off most of the investment in the Network Card.

Southern's bean-counters might also wish to note that I almost certainly won't be buying a Network Card next year either. For me, the travelcard discount was almost the only thing it was good for as I rarely make long off-peak journeys wholly within the south-east.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you can get to Central London and travel around all day for less than the cost of a Travelcard then good luck to you.

Very easy. I can cycle (free). Or drive for about £4 in petrol, park the car for free (certainly possible on Sundays and in some places on Saturday afternoons) and walk, use my folding bike or use a Borisbike (£2) to anywhere else I need to get to.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,556
Exactly. I bought by Network Card on the expectation that I'd be getting £5.90 travelcards at the weekend for nine months in 2015 - but I really don't fancy paying £8 and will make other arrangements - which means writing off most of the investment in the Network Card.

Southern's bean-counters might also wish to note that I almost certainly won't be buying a Network Card next year either. For me, the travelcard discount was almost the only thing it was good for as I rarely make long off-peak journeys wholly within the south-east.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Very easy. I can cycle (free). Or drive for about £4 in petrol, park the car for free (certainly possible on Sundays and in some places on Saturday afternoons) and walk, use my folding bike or use a Borisbike (£2) to anywhere else I need to get to.
Did you include wear and tear in your car calculations?

Within London at least it can be quicker to walk. A friend works in Chancery Lane and claims it's just as quick to walk from Waterloo than use public transport. It would be even quicker if he cycled. Clearly public transport can't connect everywhere to everywhere hence the foot can be quicker.

Tonight the traffic in Kingston was bad so I decided to run for a train. I got to the station quicker than I did this morning in the opposite direction when I was using the bus and saved £1.45 whilst doing so! Not much of a saving but I resent being stuck in traffic on a bus when I could have walked and there isn't much TFL can do about the traffic.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,751
Location
Epsom
Southern's bean-counters might also wish to note that I almost certainly won't be buying a Network Card next year either. For me, the travelcard discount was almost the only thing it was good for as I rarely make long off-peak journeys wholly within the south-east.


Isn't it more TfL's bean counters who are to blame for this steep rise within the zones?
 

Shimbleshanks

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,020
Location
Purley
Did you include wear and tear in your car calculations?

Within London at least it can be quicker to walk. A friend works in Chancery Lane and claims it's just as quick to walk from Waterloo than use public transport. It would be even quicker if he cycled. Clearly public transport can't connect everywhere to everywhere hence the foot can be quicker.

Tonight the traffic in Kingston was bad so I decided to run for a train. I got to the station quicker than I did this morning in the opposite direction when I was using the bus and saved £1.45 whilst doing so! Not much of a saving but I resent being stuck in traffic on a bus when I could have walked and there isn't much TFL can do about the traffic.

Who does include wear and tear in their car running costs? To me, it's just a big sum of money that comes round every year at MOT/servicing time. And I suspect that, given the very low mileage we do at the moment, we'd end up paying the same even if we did do a few extra miles a week.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Who does include wear and tear in their car running costs? To me, it's just a big sum of money that comes round every year at MOT/servicing time. And I suspect that, given the very low mileage we do at the moment, we'd end up paying the same even if we did do a few extra miles a week.

Wear and tear (unlike, for example VED) actually is a variable cost to running a car, not a fixed cost. But most motorists, particularly those who drive newish and reliable cars do not include it in their calculations. This is bad practice to anyone who wants to actually analyse what their transport will cost and allow that to influence their decisions, but it is also very difficult to estimate the costs of wear and tear per unit. Therefore most people look exclusively at fuel costs as the variable cost of running their vehicle, and treat the cost of maintenance as an exogenous factor. Identifying accurately the direct relationship between vehicle kilometers travelled and maintenance expenditure is not going to be easy. If it's not a big proportion of the total cost, it's also probably a waste of time because of how little it will influence the total anyway!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top