Rail operators forced to tell passengers how to get cheapest fare - Telegraph

[Haywain]

I suspect we should ask Hairyhandedfool about this one. If, on being asked for a future dated return to somewhere and there are Advances available with the origin and destination specified by the passenger he would offer them, it is probably legitimate to do so.

In these circumstances I, would sell two Advances if they were available and the customer knew the journey details. However, there are now Advance tickets appearing for journeys where they might once have seemed unlikely and this can catch staff out, which might be what happened to the OP.

The problem arises for certain journeys such as Stafford to York. There are advances available by splitting at Manchester, or a walk-up ticket to Birmingham and then an advance from there to York. Otherwise the only available tickets are the pricey Off-Peak and Anytime returns. What is to be recommended in this case is much more of a grey area.

As ever, I would only give the fare for the through journey.

 

[Clip]

I suspect we should ask Hairyhandedfool about this one. If, on being asked for a future dated return to somewhere and there are Advances available with the origin and destination specified by the passenger he would offer them, it is probably legitimate to do so.

The problem arises for certain journeys such as Stafford to York. There are advances available by splitting at Manchester, or a walk-up ticket to Birmingham and then an advance from there to York. Otherwise the only available tickets are the pricey Off-Peak and Anytime returns. What is to be recommended in this case is much more of a grey area.

Why ask him - I've given you the answer. Quite simply the clerk is only obliged to give what the passenger asks for.

Now, if a passenger asked the clerk if they could see if there were possible permutations to get a cheaper ticket to/from their destination then the clerk is obliged to do that as that is what is asked for.

We could use a supermarket analogy as we are so fond of them but I wont as it is futile and this thread will only drag on now with 'what ifs'.

 

[Flamingo]

If a passenger asks for a "Return", they are asking for a flexible ticket. Two "Advance" singles are NOT flexible, and I would not consider offering them as comparable.

If the passenger asked for the cheapest way to do the journey, they would be appropriate.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Under impartial retailing rules, Ticket Sellers are required to offer the most appropriate fare for the journey the passenger describes, seeking further information where more than one fare is suitable (e.g. if price or time is important, if they want flexibility, etc).

Split ticketing is explicitly excluded, and should only be sold if explicitly requested, as the nature of same means that somebody will lose revenue they would get from a through ticket.

 

[maniacmartin]

Will a TIS show 2 advances (one each way) by default to the clerk or would the clerk have to manually check for that?

 

[Haywain]

Will a TIS show 2 advances (one each way) by default to the clerk or would the clerk have to manually check for that?

No, you have to look for them.

 

[Clip]

Will a TIS show 2 advances (one each way) by default to the clerk or would the clerk have to manually check for that?

You have to look for them and as I said further up that starts taking time - which isn't a problem as long as they come at the right time and not at 0700 when people want the regular TC and they know what they want.

 

[Starmill]

I disagree that it's a grey area. The clerk has no obligation to recommend anything other than a through ticket.

I agree that this is the case. What I am saying is, if the clerk were inclined to try to offer the passenger advance tickets - perhaps the passenger specified that they wanted them - would the clerk be permitted to suggest this? Or would they only be at liberty to say 'I'm sorry, but there are no advance tickets available for your journey. All I can offer you is this off-peak return'.

My view on this is that if we are going to exclude splitting entirely to get passengers advances where they request them, there should be a much more level playing field on where advances are actually available to and from.
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Why ask him - I've given you the answer. Quite simply the clerk is only obliged to give what the passenger asks for.

Now, if a passenger asked the clerk if they could see if there were possible permutations to get a cheaper ticket to/from their destination then the clerk is obliged to do that as that is what is asked for.

Well unfortunately I think you're correct, and this is what I thought already.

But then I am confused as to how Richard1960 has ended up with his state of affairs.

 

[yorkie]

I agree that this is the case. What I am saying is, if the clerk were inclined to try to offer the passenger advance tickets - perhaps the passenger specified that they wanted them - would the clerk be permitted to suggest this? Or would they only be at liberty to say 'I'm sorry, but there are no advance tickets available for your journey. All I can offer you is this off-peak return'..

If a passenger asked if there were Advance fares available from York to Stafford, I'd expect the clerk to confirm that there were no Advance fares available for that particular flow, and to offer through fare alternatives.

The clerk wouldn't be obliged to offer a split, however if the passenger says something like 'can I split at Manchester?' or 'I know there are Advance fares from York to Manchester, can you see if they also exist from Manchester to Stafford?' or similar reasonable questions, that is the passenger initiating it and the clerk should then assist.

But if the passenger said something like 'Can you check all splitting points to find the best combination of fares?' then that is unreasonable. Perhaps one day the rail industry will direct people asking such questions to a site like Trainsplit , but that is unlikely and I think we just have to accept that the average person isn't going to get a good deal on a journey like York-Stafford without some knowledge or taking the initiative to find out more.

 

[Clip]

I agree that this is the case. What I am saying is, if the clerk were inclined to try to offer the passenger advance tickets - perhaps the passenger specified that they wanted them - would the clerk be permitted to suggest this? Or would they only be at liberty to say 'I'm sorry, but there are no advance tickets available for your journey. All I can offer you is this off-peak return'.

My view on this is that if we are going to exclude splitting entirely to get passengers advances where they request them, there should be a much more level playing field on where advances are actually available to and from.
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Well unfortunately I think you're correct, and this is what I thought already.

But then I am confused as to how Richard1960 has ended up with his state of affairs.

I've already said that if they asked for them then they will gladly search out for them.

You ask you get its that simple

 

[dcsprior]

It takes time (=money) to plan, develop and test the software updates

Yes, but nobody seems to have any desire to do it. The software is mostly unchanged in ten years.

We need someone to force the industry to change, and ideally ATOC takes the responsibility so everything is standardised.

Presumably the long time (=high cost) that it takes is exacerbated by the fact that the same job needs doing, but in slightly different ways, for each TOC.

I don't know about TVMs, other than from a user's perspective, but I do know that when many different companies all apply their own customisations to a piece of software (even if by paying the original creator), when they subsequently all need functionality adding, the changes there have been in the meantime mean expensive duplication of work - or even if there isn't real duplication of work, the opportunity for work to be charged multiple times.

Perhaps someone acting on behalf of all the TOCs together should ask various IT providers for proposals for a new generation of TVM software - with the agreement that they'll all then buy the same new product which is truly fit for purpose.

Taking this further, it could be a requirement for those tendering that the rights to the software are owned by ATOC or the government, or even that it be released under a free software license.

This could then be followed up by deciding some standard physical configurations configurations (e.g. TOD-only indoor, TOD/card indoor, TOD/card outdoor, TOD/cash/card indoor, TOD/cash/card outdoor, maybe cash-only outdoor for non-networked locations) and have two suppliers for each configuration

 

[jon0844]

Doing like Sky means being able to have standard software built to your specifications, but still have competition through different hardware suppliers. ATOC should consider this.

And you're so right about the need to better manage customisations, which should really be simple templates that can be customised (logo, colours, maybe even font) but not affect the core software underneath.

Making the software more dynamic and acting on live information would be another obvious step, as most if not all TVMs must now be connected for fault reporting, authorisations etc.

 

[Starmill]

I think we just have to accept that the average person isn't going to get a good deal on a journey like York-Stafford without some knowledge or taking the initiative to find out more.

I quite agree.

However I think that's an unacceptable state of affairs. Why should it be a complete lottery of where you are travelling to and from whether or not you have access to such information?

 

[maniacmartin]

You have to look for them and as I said further up that starts taking time - which isn't a problem as long as they come at the right time and not at 0700 when people want the regular TC and they know what they want.

The reason I ask if that the specific case of a single for each direction when you ask for a return is the one split that booking websites (including those operated by TOCs) will offer by default if you key in a return journey, so it's not totally unreasonable for a passenger to expect it to be offered if they have bought tickets online in the past.

That said, I doubt there is an obligation for a clerk to offer it (I have not checked the TSA)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Of course there shouldn't be an obligation for ticket clerks to offer split tickets. It would be totally unfair on them, for one thing. I'd give it thirty seconds before someone was whining that clerk A only offered them one split but clerk B offered them six splits, saving them £2.86, and that they want a refund of the difference. If you want to try split-ticketing, do your own research.

I'd don't agree about ticket clerks not mentioning advance fares though, even if it's just to mention it might be cheaper if you can tie yourself to a specific train. Online booking engines manage to do it when you ask for a "return to x", and it is the online booking engines that will see most ticket clerks out of a job within a decade if they're not careful.

 

[Clip]

The reason I ask if that the specific case of a single for each direction when you ask for a return is the one split that booking websites (including those operated by TOCs) will offer by default if you key in a return journey, so it's not totally unreasonable for a passenger to expect it to be offered if they have bought tickets online in the past.

That said, I doubt there is an obligation for a clerk to offer it (I have not checked the TSA)

If they came to the window and specifically asked for 2 singles for that journey then not a problem really as you just dump one in the basket then fetch the other. Its the ones who want a split of 2 3 or 4 tickets each way that become time consuming and thus lead to queues which leads to people finding the disputes section because the queue was perceived to be too long so they just hopped on.
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I'd don't agree about ticket clerks not mentioning advance fares though, even if it's just to mention it might be cheaper if you can tie yourself to a specific train. Online booking engines manage to do it when you ask for a "return to x", and it is the online booking engines that will see most ticket clerks out of a job within a decade if they're not careful.

Ive been saying this for a while now with regards to online booking and smartcards but no one seems to care.


If you are booking a few days in advance then the cheapest fare should come up if you want to tie in with a certain train - trouble is, is that people are never sure when they may travel or when they want to return in most cases so you cant win

 

[Greenback]

There has to be a balance struck somewhere between serving people in a timely manner and providing help and assistance to travellers unfamiliar with fares and the way that the fares system works.

When I worked at Reading, this was dealt with by having a separate travel centre which was designed to allow for more time to spent on a transaction. The windows were there for speed. If I was working in the travel centre I'd have spent more time checking what the customer wanted, at the windows I was always conscious of the queue of people waiting behind who wanted to get about their business.

I'm not sure what I'd do if I was working today in an environment where I was expected to sell Advance tickets and walk up tickets tot he same queue. All I can say say is I think it would be a lot more difficult to make the correct judgement call than what I was used to. And, I suspect there's a lot more inconsistency in delivery as well.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think the issue is when the clerks don't mention it at all- like in the OP's case- and just sell you a return to x. Most people might not be certain which exact train they want to be on but I'd bet most people will know roughly when they want to travel.

I don't think they can or should go trawling through every train on the day to see which one is the cheapest, but they should be mentioning that if you can tie yourself to a specific train at roughly the time you want to travel you may save money. The good ones already do it. If people experience the same issue the OP experienced then they will only go and buy online next time, and ultimately if everyone does that the ticket office staff will lose their jobs.

ETA: Greenback makes a very good point about the loss of specific windows for advance ticket sales. If you're an old lady wanting to go to Thurso via Mansfield and Llandridnod Wells on a Thursday in March, coming back sometime in 2018, you can go to the Advance window. If you want a ticket for today you go to that window. Fewer station offices are set up like this now, and it makes the whole experience a lot worse.

 

[Greenback]

I think the issue is when the clerks don't mention it at all- like in the OP's case- and just sell you a return to x. Most people might not be certain which exact train they want to be on but I'd bet most people will know roughly when they want to travel.

I don't think they can or should go trawling through every train on the day to see which one is the cheapest, but they should be mentioning that if you can tie yourself to a specific train at roughly the time you want to travel you may save money. The good ones already do it. If people experience the same issue the OP experienced then they will only go and buy online next time, and ultimately if everyone does that the ticket office staff will lose their jobs.

ETA: Greenback makes a very good point about the loss of specific windows for advance ticket sales. If you're an old lady wanting to go to Thurso via Mansfield and Llandridnod Wells on a Thursday in March, coming back sometime in 2018, you can go to the Advance window. If you want a ticket for today you go to that window. Fewer station offices are set up like this now, and it makes the whole experience a lot worse.

You're right, and I was alluding to the OP's case when I mentioned inconsistency, in that some clerks when it's busy may just automatically sell the ticket requested, while others, or even the same clerk at a less busy time will feel they have an opportunity to delve more deeply into the plans of the passenger in order to help them.

At the moment there's no obligation to do that, but some will do it if they can. I've seen it happening in my own eyes in several places, including locally.

 

[Clip]

I'm not sure what I'd do if I was working today in an environment where I was expected to sell Advance tickets and walk up tickets tot he same queue. All I can say say is I think it would be a lot more difficult to make the correct judgement call than what I was used to. And, I suspect there's a lot more inconsistency in delivery as well.

Which is why you just give them what they ask for.

I have a couple of proactive clerks around my stations who, like RJ might, would possibly look for a cheaper journey if the time was right and they like to do so as it passes the time for them and they enjoy it too* also if at a 1 window station but they're under no obligation to do so no matter how outraged certain forum members may get at this.


*How else do you reckon RJ finds so many fancy routes on his journeys

 

[infobleep]

Doing like Sky means being able to have standard software built to your specifications, but still have competition through different hardware suppliers. ATOC should consider this.

And you're so right about the need to better manage customisations, which should really be simple templates that can be customised (logo, colours, maybe even font) but not affect the core software underneath.

Making the software more dynamic and acting on live information would be another obvious step, as most if not all TVMs must now be connected for fault reporting, authorisations etc.

If the software was open and standard wouldn't that do software manufacturers out of money? Like hardware manufacturers they to need to make a living.

Regardless of thus though, I would favour the open source route as it might lead to more modern and advanced software.

I don't know how old or well designed existing software is but I wouldn't surprised if there were issues with some software providers.

Its expensive switching providers as well so that could only be justified if they saved money through doing so.

 

[Greenback]

Which is why you just give them what they ask for.

I have a couple of proactive clerks around my stations who, like RJ might, would possibly look for a cheaper journey if the time was right and they like to do so as it passes the time for them and they enjoy it too* also if at a 1 window station but they're under no obligation to do so no matter how outraged certain forum members may get at this.

Indeed. I used to like to do it too, as I always had an interest in railways, but my point is that clerks like those you mention (and myself if I were still doing it) only add to the confusion about what clerks must do by providing service delivery that is inconsistent.

To elaborate on what I mentioned earlier, I've sat waiting for a train in a certain station on a quiet Sunday afternoon where the clerk was not under pressure and were able to offer a lot of advice and ask questions to establish what a passenger really wanted even when they thought they knew what ticket they should be buying!

Move to a Tuesday morning and the same clerk at the same station has a queue and can't take the time to do the same thing.

The result is that a passenger who has bought a ticket on a Sunday afternoon will experience a vastly different level of service, and would be forgiven for thinking that the better service they previously experienced should be the norm.

A side issue of this is the inevitable impact on the queue lengths should this passenger then vocalise their disappointment and insist that the clerk fulfils their obligations of looking through a range of fares as they had done before, rather than just sell the straightforward return that the passenger initially asked for,

I hate to say it, and I would never have instructed anyone not to do it, but sometimes helping the customer can backfire. It shouldn't, but it does.

 

[Clip]

Oh I agree but with a lot of stations where these clerks are they are generally the quieter ones apart from at a certain terminus, and therefore the passengers know them and know to come outside of the peaks.

We don't tell them to do this for them nor tell them not too but in the main and from what I witness when visiting them is that they help out those who are not in work - mainly the elderly and such like - though I do remember letting them know not to confuse them with many tickets but to get them the best fare they could as that way danger lies on another TOC where they may make a mistake but otherwise I turn a blind eye to it

 

[Greenback]

It's easier at smaller stations where the staff are able to recognise customers and their needs through being able to build up relationships more easily than we could at Reading.

The station where I observed the clerks in action wasn't a small one, though there was only one clerk working on the Sunday afternoon.

 

[Clip]

I quite agree.

However I think that's an unacceptable state of affairs. Why should it be a complete lottery of where you are travelling to and from whether or not you have access to such information?

There you go again with your hyperbole.

Its not unfair at all, its like life in many other enterprises in the uk and the world. If you don't like it you are always free to take the bus coach or indeed a pedal cycle.

 

[Greenback]

There's a national lottery, a postcode lottery, a lottery with NHS treatment depending on where you live, and so on.

It's by no means ideal but it's a fact of life.

 

[Starmill]

I merely sought to highlight that, as yorkie succinctly put it, we have to accept a discrepancy with that journey, that we should not have to accept such conditions in some cases and not others. I reject the accusation of 'hyperbole' and contest the implication that I am not a valued passenger. In conclusion I point out that although my views are perhaps a tad unorthodox, I don't engage in personal slander. Clearly my contributions to this forum are not well valued.

 

[Greenback]

I was trying to point out that we don't live in an ideal world. These sort of things occur in many walks of life, whether we like it or not, and will continue to do so.

Life simply isn't fair, and it things don't always work the way we would like them to. That's just the way it is, unfortunately.

 

[RJ]

Which is why you just give them what they ask for.

I have a couple of proactive clerks around my stations who, like RJ might, would possibly look for a cheaper journey if the time was right and they like to do so as it passes the time for them and they enjoy it too* also if at a 1 window station but they're under no obligation to do so no matter how outraged certain forum members may get at this.


*How else do you reckon RJ finds so many fancy routes on his journeys

All done in my spare time .

I had a lady come to my window the other day asking for an open return to Brighton. I gave her the price and she wasn't happy - she claimed she always paid less for this journey. She was adamant that I should do some typing on the computer to find a cheaper fare. I tried asking which ticket(s) she had bought in the past, or how much she had paid in the past but she couldn't tell me either. Looking for the price of two singles instead was about as far as I was prepared to go without any further input from her - in this case, it wasn't cheaper.

Later, I found that splitting at Gatwick would be cheaper, i.e

Coulsdon South to Brighton SVR is £28

2x Coulsdon South to Gatwick SDS @ £5.20 each is £10.40
Gatwick to Brighton SOR is £10.00

So there was a saving to be had. However I wasn't about to go investigating split ticketing options - there are only two windows where I am and more often than not mine is the only one open! That said, I do get quite a few people ask for me specifically to find splits for them for some reason :?. Sometimes people are even happy to go down the road to the shops whilst I look for them. I was a bit disappointed that I couldn't help one chap find a good deal on a single to Redcar - I was stupefied that a Super Off Peak single was in the region of £125! Best I could do was save a tenner or so by using a GC only ticket for part of the way.

There are also times where I might suggest rookie level splits if people compain about the price. Singles to FGW territory for example. A Super Off Peak single from my station to Cardiff is now £76.50 - but a Travelcard + single from Paddington is £55. A £30 premium for a cross London journey is a bit on the steep side. Occasionally I might suggest a cheaper Travelcard instead of a single. For example, a Coulsdon South to Milton Keynes single is £30 - but Off Peak Milton Keynes Travelcards are priced between £20 and £28.70. It all depends on the situation.

 

[infobleep]

I was trying to point out that we don't live in an ideal world. These sort of things occur in many walks of life, whether we like it or not, and will continue to do so.

Life simply isn't fair, and it things don't always work the way we would like them to. That's just the way it is, unfortunately.

If I pointed out a ticket that undercut other tickets I wouldn't be surprised if a TOC put the price up or changed the restrictions.

If I pointed out a station that didn't have advanced fares to another station, I imagine nothing much would be done. That's the way life is on the railways and no doubt in other industries too. Nothings perfect.
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All done in my spare time [emoji14].

I had a lady come to my window the other day asking for an open return to Brighton. I gave her the price and she wasn't happy - she claimed she always paid less for this journey. She was adamant that I should do some typing on the computer to find a cheaper fare. I tried asking which ticket(s) she had bought in the past, or how much she had paid in the past but she couldn't tell me either. Looking for the price of two singles instead was about as far as I was prepared to go without any further input from her - in this case, it wasn't cheaper.

Later, I found that splitting at Gatwick would be cheaper, i.e

Coulsdon South to Brighton SVR is £28

2x Coulsdon South to Gatwick SDS @ £5.20 each is £10.40
Gatwick to Brighton SOR is £10.00

So there was a saving to be had. However I wasn't about to go investigating split ticketing options - there are only two windows where I am and more often than not mine is the only one open! That said, I do get quite a few people ask for me specifically to find splits for them for some reason :?. Sometimes people are even happy to go down the road to the shops whilst I look for them. I was a bit disappointed that I couldn't help one chap find a good deal on a single to Redcar - I was stupefied that a Super Off Peak single was in the region of £125! Best I could do was save a tenner or so by using a GC only ticket for part of the way.

There are also times where I might suggest rookie level splits if people compain about the price. Singles to FGW territory for example. A Super Off Peak single from my station to Cardiff is now £76.50 - but a Travelcard + single from Paddington is £55. A £30 premium for a cross London journey is a bit on the steep side. Occasionally I might suggest a cheaper Travelcard instead of a single. For example, a Coulsdon South to Milton Keynes single is £30 - but Off Peak Milton Keynes Travelcards are priced between £20 and £28.70. It all depends on the situation.

Well network rail need to invest in the infrastructure. That's why a £30 premium is required for cross London travel. Lol.