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Changes to Annual Gold Card benefits from 2nd January 2015

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bb21

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It is indeed only valid from 0930, so staff were correct for once, but not entirely, as the ticket is not invalid due to it being an Off-Peak ticket, rather because it is discounted with a Gold Card.
 
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jon0844

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Yes. Just as off peak trains before 1000 weren't valid before, which is why if I had to travel earlier I'd buy a single to the next stop, where the time of departure was then 1001.

I assume you could do that at Gatwick too.
 

talldave

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Yes, but a ticket valid for catching services from 09:30 onwards should surely let me through a couple of minutes before? I was only going for the 09:35 Gatwick Express so it wasn't too tight.

My guess is that it might still be in 10am mode, but I'll check next time I'm coming through, by trying my ticket at 09:28, 09:29 etc...

Not bad though, a day's Travelcard and travel there & back on Gatwick Express for £12. My spreadsheet for the year will tell me whether this Gold Card trick has paid off!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes. Just as off peak trains before 1000 weren't valid before, which is why if I had to travel earlier I'd buy a single to the next stop, where the time of departure was then 1001.

I assume you could do that at Gatwick too.

Yes, there may be occasions where I buy my Boundary Zone ticket without a discount so I can catch the 09:23 - but still buy the associated Travelcard with the discount.
 

bb21

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It's difficult to say. I don't think it is unreasonable to be held back until 0930 if you are going for the 0935, a bit tight possibly but not unreasonable, especially if you don't have lots of luggage in tow.

On the other hand, if you were going for the 0932, ...
 

talldave

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It's difficult to say. I don't think it is unreasonable to be held back until 0930 if you are going for the 0935, a bit tight possibly but not unreasonable, especially if you don't have lots of luggage in tow.

On the other hand, if you were going for the 0932, ...

I agree. My cynicism for Southern's inability to organise anything leads to my assumption that they won't have thought to update the barriers from a 10am rule, ... so it'll be interesting to find out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
TVMs st Gatwick refused to give annual gold card discount this morning after 9.30 (tried 3 machines) despite one of them being the one that happily gave the discount at 9.20 last Thursday. I missed 2 Gatwick Expresses in the meantime as I had to queue for the ticket office.

Of course if Southern would sell Boundary Zone tickets online my life would be so much easier.
 

jon0844

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Just got a ticket today at Hatfield and it has NSE on it, yet wasn't subject to the £13 minimum so I still paid the right amount. Didn't notice immediately but I'd shown my gold card and said gold card, and I have no doubt she saw that.

Now worried about a ticket check later, but given I used a ticket office I shouldn't have any problems. Touch wood!
 

spira

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The whole Gold Card discounted ticket not valid on virgin trains seems a bit confusing, and the staff themselves seems to be a bit confused from it too.

I bought an off peak any route permited ticket last friday for euston to milton keynes with my gold card, and since it did say any route permitted on it and the machine screen did not specify that it's not permitted on virgin trains service. I got a bit confused if it just means i can't get a discount on a virgin trains only ticket, and I can actually hop onto a virgin service with this ticket. So I asked the staff at the information kiosk and he said it's any off peak train, then I moved onto the platform where they were performing ticket checks and I asked the virgin staff there if I can hop onto that train, and he gave me the all clear as well.

Then I read this post earlier in the day which conflicted what the staff at Euston said, so I decided to go onto twitter and ask the virgin staff there. Initially the twitter person told me it's valid, but then I pointed out that I cannot buy that ticket online, after a few message exchanges she said "Yes. the £10.15 fare does not show on our systems for the Virgin service and so therefore is not valid."

Sounds like a mess and I don't understand why they made that specific rule...
 

RJ

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Then I read this post earlier in the day which conflicted what the staff at Euston said, so I decided to go onto twitter and ask the virgin staff there. Initially the twitter person told me it's valid, but then I pointed out that I cannot buy that ticket online, after a few message exchanges she said "Yes. the £10.15 fare does not show on our systems for the Virgin service and so therefore is not valid."

Sounds like a mess and I don't understand why they made that specific rule...

It's a communications issue. "Gold Card discounted tickets not valid on Virgin Trains services" is a rule which isn't hard to understand in itself, but effectively communicating such information to relevant staff isn't a strong point for some Train Operating Companies. One would be hard pressed to find a guard who will challenge the use of All Line Rovers before 10am for example, despite the rule coming into effect a couple of years ago.
 
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jon0844

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What happens if you're told it's okay before boarding then stung on the train?
 

RJ

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What happens if you're told it's okay before boarding then stung on the train?

I'd hope the company would recognise that their staff may have given out wrong information, arrange for them to be briefed up and reimburse the difference, as it may well have been that the person would have travelled by a different TOC if they were armed with the correct information.

TOCs aren't always great at acknowledging that their staff aren't always right and can place 100% of responsibility of the passenger for following what their staff wrongly advise them. The "of course the man on the platform told you that" mentality is something that needs working on.
 

GodAtum

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It's a communications issue. "Gold Card discounted tickets not valid on Virgin Trains services" is a rule which isn't hard to understand in itself, but effectively communicating such information to relevant staff isn't a strong point for some Train Operating Companies. One would be hard pressed to find a guard who will challenge the use of All Line Rovers before 10am for example, despite the rule coming into effect a couple of years ago.

But if one buys a ticket valid for all services, how can that not be valid for a service?
 

paul1609

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Yes, but a ticket valid for catching services from 09:30 onwards should surely let me through a couple of minutes before? I was only going for the 09:35 Gatwick Express so it wasn't too tight.

My guess is that it might still be in 10am mode, but I'll check next time I'm coming through, by trying my ticket at 09:28, 09:29 etc...

Not bad though, a day's Travelcard and travel there & back on Gatwick Express for £12. My spreadsheet for the year will tell me whether this Gold Card trick has paid off!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes, there may be occasions where I buy my Boundary Zone ticket without a discount so I can catch the 09:23 - but still buy the associated Travelcard with the discount.

I dont think the barriers or the ticket coding are sophisticated enough to distinguish between different type of railcard and their different time restrictions. At St Pancras High Speed Barriers my HM Forces railcards seem to be be rejected "seek assistance" most of the time. The staff on the manual barriers never query the tickets.
 

Tetchytyke

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But if one buys a ticket valid for all services, how can that not be valid for a service?

The railcard discount means that it is not valid for all services. A similar example is an Anytime single with a Two Together railcard discount- the discount means it is not valid before 0930, regardless of any other restrictions.

The situation at Milton Keynes is ridiculous though. If you hold a Gold Card season ticket from Milton Keynes to London you can travel on Virgin Trains, but if your partner comes with you on a discounted ticket they can't.
 

IanD

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The railcard discount means that it is not valid for all services. A similar example is an Anytime single with a Two Together railcard discount- the discount means it is not valid before 0930, regardless of any other restrictions.

The situation at Milton Keynes is ridiculous though. If you hold a Gold Card season ticket from Milton Keynes to London you can travel on Virgin Trains, but if your partner comes with you on a discounted ticket they can't.

I emailed Virgin asking them to clarify the rules on Gold Card discounts from MK and they just sent me a £20 voucher with no explanation. If I send them more emails, I'll maybe get enough vouchers to not have to worry about losing the discount.
 

jon0844

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So they're still doing that? Might have to just write in and say 'hello, how's it going?' and see how much they give me!
 

infobleep

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I emailed Virgin asking them to clarify the rules on Gold Card discounts from MK and they just sent me a £20 voucher with no explanation. If I send them more emails, I'll maybe get enough vouchers to not have to worry about losing the discount.
That's great. Had a good laugh over that. Perhaps they are paying you off not to ask awkward questions.
 

extendedpaul

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My Network Railcard expires in a couple of weeks and I'm thinking of investing in an annual season ticket to get a Gold Card. I'm aware of the restrictions on some TOCs - it's mainly the minimum weekday fare with the Network Card I want to overcome. The 9.30 start time compared to 10am will also be very useful plus my daughter will be 16 in July so the saving on her initial YP railcard will be a bonus.

Am I right in thinking that Lichfield Trent Valley to Lichfield City is now the cheapest at £144 ?

Are there any drawbacks that may not be immediately obvious in comparison with the Network Railcard ?
 

swt_passenger

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It is, until you use a discount that restricts the way the ticket can be used.

This (lack of Gold Card discount) is not a lot different to buying an 'any permitted' fare with Groupsave discount and then finding there's nothing on the ticket to inform you it cannot be used on XC ...

Between Bournemouth and Basingstoke the 'no Groupsave on XC' appears on the PIS displays, but that's all.
 

RJ

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My Network Railcard expires in a couple of weeks and I'm thinking of investing in an annual season ticket to get a Gold Card. I'm aware of the restrictions on some TOCs - it's mainly the minimum weekday fare with the Network Card I want to overcome. The 9.30 start time compared to 10am will also be very useful plus my daughter will be 16 in July so the saving on her initial YP railcard will be a bonus.

Am I right in thinking that Lichfield Trent Valley to Lichfield City is now the cheapest at £144 ?

Are there any drawbacks that may not be immediately obvious in comparison with the Network Railcard ?

The Gold Card discount isn't valid on Virgin Trains or East Coast services, whereas the Network Railcard discount is.

This (lack of Gold Card discount) is not a lot different to buying an 'any permitted' fare with Groupsave discount and then finding there's nothing on the ticket to inform you it cannot be used on XC ...

Between Bournemouth and Basingstoke the 'no Groupsave on XC' appears on the PIS displays, but that's all.

The terms of use of the discount should be known and understood before it is used. Thus it shouldn't have to appear on tickets.
 
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swt_passenger

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The terms of use of the discount should be known and understood before it is used. Thus it shouldn't have to appear on tickets.

I agree, just pointing out that there are other existing precedents for the suggested 'issue'...
 

RJ

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I agree, just pointing out that there are other existing precedents for the suggested 'issue'...

It shouldn't be an issue - the rule that the Gold Card discount only applies to participating TOCs is simple to understand. Things do get complicated when people want to use the discount, then ask questions that essentially concern ways to circumvent that rule.

At my station, we have stocks and stocks of Annual Gold Card information foldouts. They contain a map of the AGC area and a list of participating TOCs. They fit into standard ticket wallets and are given out to everybody that has a Gold Card. I do think the publishers have missed a trick by not making it very clear that some TOCs in the area don't participate. Such an omission is likely to cause problems.

All that said, I don't think there is any conflict with Condition 10 here - the ticket bears an indication of a discount that is TOC restricted, so it complies - I haven't yet seen a compelling argument to suggest this is not the case.
 

jon0844

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Tickets sold with a Gold Card discount should have a restriction code that basically states the details in that foldout card in a very easy to view page. That's assuming people know the nationalrail.co.uk/xx URL (that should also be stated on the back really, until we get the new style ticket layout that I believe has the whole URL).

I damaged my foldout card (got soaked in rain and it got drenched) and it's not practical to carry even this all year round.
 

Deerfold

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It shouldn't be an issue - the rule that the Gold Card discount only applies to participating TOCs is simple to understand. Things do get complicated when people want to use the discount, then ask questions that essentially concern ways to circumvent that rule.

At my station, we have stocks and stocks of Annual Gold Card information foldouts. They contain a map of the AGC area and a list of participating TOCs. They fit into standard ticket wallets and are given out to everybody that has a Gold Card. I do think the publishers have missed a trick by not making it very clear that some TOCs in the area don't participate. Such an omission is likely to cause problems.

All that said, I don't think there is any conflict with Condition 10 here - the ticket bears an indication of a discount that is TOC restricted, so it complies - I haven't yet seen a compelling argument to suggest this is not the case.

What happens when people who bought Gold Cards before Virgin stopped accepting GC-discounted tickets (and may well have bought them in December) buy one? They will have read nothing about tickets not being valid on Virgin.
 

CyrusWuff

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What happens when people who bought Gold Cards before Virgin stopped accepting GC-discounted tickets (and may well have bought them in December) buy one? They will have read nothing about tickets not being valid on Virgin.

There's been a poster, mailshot and leaflet campaign about the changes. Can't speak for other TOCs, but we've been giving out leaflets and the more detailed cards detailing the changes when people have bought a new Annual or come to us for an Encode Exchange.

There's also the dedicated page on the National Rail website detailing the changes.

Having said that, I would also expect clerks to point out that Virgin and East Coast are no longer participating in the scheme for "relevant" journeys, at least to start with.
 

RJ

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What happens when people who bought Gold Cards before Virgin stopped accepting GC-discounted tickets (and may well have bought them in December) buy one? They will have read nothing about tickets not being valid on Virgin.

Online shouldn't allow it. Like CyrusWuff's TOC, we've pretty much majored on publicity concerning changes to the benefits where I am. Maybe there'll be a grace period.

A subtle change is that the discount shown on accompanying child tickets has changed from CHNGC to CHAGC.
 
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lightbulb

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The participating train companies are:

Abellio Greater Anglia, Arriva Trains Wales, c2c, Chiltern Railways, CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains, First Great Western, Gatwick Express, Great Northern, Heathrow Connect, Heathrow Express, Island Line, London Midland, London Overground, South West Trains, Southeastern (including High Speed), Southern and Thameslink.

East Coast, First Hull Trains and Virgin Trains are excluded.
 
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button_boxer

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Tickets sold with a Gold Card discount should have a restriction code that basically states the details in that foldout card in a very easy to view page.

You can get Gold Card discounted Anytime tickets, and Anytimes don't have a "restriction code" at all.
 
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