[BBC News] "Trains outside London are 'cast-offs' MPs say"

[HSTEd]

Take Northern for example. Their newest trains are now, what, 13 years old. They run on three lines out of Leeds and the same out of Bradford. A small drop in Northern's ocean.

East Coast, not one train of post-BR vintage.

 

[Murph]

East Coast, not one train of post-BR vintage.

East Coast, two of the best classes of train the nation has ever known.

 

[DarloRich]

The problem with comparing the 'newness' of rolling stock is that no comparison is made of the differing traffic volumes, the availability of suitable trains from existing stock and the effect that has on procurement, (irresepective of where the requirement is).
The fleets of trains in the south east are huge compared with those in the north. There are nearly 1000 377 coaches in sets of 3,4 & 5, in use on TSGN routes. That is as many as all class 156, 158, and 170's anywhere outside the south east.
So when there is a need to equip a line into London the typical requirement is 300+ coaches of ac EMUs. Where would they come from? There are 96 'not new' ac EMU coaches in ther whole of the Northern franchise, so you could create a micro fleet of 323 and 333 stock in the south-east. Then buy shine new trains to keep you happy. Mmmm, the railway is expensive enough to fund without creating additional inefficiencies just to assuage the jealousy of a few passengers, and opportunism of journalists and politicians.
Just recognise that rail transport in London is all about volume. Over 4 million people travel to London everfy day and rail is the dominant mode as the investment in roads was (thankfully) not extended to the south-east as it was elsewhere in the UK.
The south-east has many examples of electric equivalents to pacers, e.g. tube trains. Most of them are feom the '90s, some are from the early '70s. They have hard seats, they are very cramped and they carry numbers of passengers that sleepy northern commuters just couldn't cope with.

some sense!

As a former sleepy northern commuter who was relocated to the south I can say that commuting in the SE is a different order of magnitude to the north.

This morning, for instance, I got a Virgin train from Milton Keynes to Euston. It was 11 cars long and every standard class seat was taken with people stood in the aisle, the vestibules and sat on the luggage stacks. Tonight I will get a northern train out of Leeds (the Goole one around 5 I hope) it will be a 150 + 153 and be nowhere near as busy. Yes, it will be mostly full but nowhere near the levels a similar time train out of Euston will be. There a 12 car LM train can be full and standing all the way to Bletchley.

A different world – before we consider the cost of the tickets.

 

[WatcherZero]

MPs. Members of what parliament? The English one, surely, as none of their comments can apply to north of the border. Bad journalism or bad press release?

Transport Select Committee has oversight of all UK and European transport issues and the running of the Dft and its subsidiaries. Scottish MP's also among its membership.

 

[Taunton]

I wonder if the MPs would care to state which rail vehicles elsewhere in the country are "cast offs" from the South-East. Given that the transfer of the 319s has not even happened yet, about the only transfers I can think of are half the Merseyrail emu fleet, which spent their first couple of years out of Waterloo in the 1970s - and I don't think any of them are enough of a Choo-Choo-Chum to remember that!

Anyway, age is nothing to do with it. There are many daily travellers on the Metropolitan Line from intermediate points like Harrow etc who would love to have their recently-departed 60-year old A stock back, which they could actually get a seat on (and notably comfortable ones, too), rather than their replacing, over-hyped new trains with just half the seats, where they always now have to stand.

 

[A0wen]

Pacers especially were cheaply built and would never been allowed in the South East.

Take Northern for example. Their newest trains are now, what, 13 years old. They run on three lines out of Leeds and the same out of Bradford. A small drop in Northern's ocean.

The majority of their services, save for a handful of electrified routes, are run by these original 80's trains. Contrast that to most of the South East, where all its original slam door stock was replaced with brand new modern trains. What will happen when Pacers and Sprinters life expire, will brand new trains be built? Will they hell!

Maybe THAT'S what MP's are trying to say.

Let's ignore the fact that in the South East you have 313s, 315s and 317s operating commuter services, both of which are over 30 years old.

Let's disregard the fact that HSTs providing services into London are nearly 40 years old.

How about the fact that LU has just retired the 'A' class stock which was nearly 50 years old?

Or what about the DEMUs on the Southern which were replaced with 171s?

Even the youngest 'slam door' stock was 30 years old when retired (312s).

Most of the stock investment in the South East over the last 10-15 years has been driven by the fact existing stock was either life-expired, non-compliant to safety regs or there were new routes which required rolling stock e.g. Heathrow, NLL / ELL / WLL.

During the time in the 80s when the North was getting new Pacers and Sprinters, commuters in the south east in many areas routinely had 20 year old trains - funny how it wasn't a problem then......

 

[richw]

Take Northern for example. Their newest trains are now, what, 13 years old.

Can we have something that new please?

Other than 3 a day in each direction which are XC services, all of our FGW services are 150/153 and HST worked down here. 25 years at newest for the 150/153?

 

[pemma]

Can we have something that new please?

Other than 3 a day in each direction which are XC services, all of our FGW services are 150/153 and HST worked down here. 25 years at newest for the 150/153?

FGW have 180s which are the same sort of age as 333s, 180s may only cover a small number of lines in the FGW franchise area but the same situation is true with 333s in the North.

If you live on the Wirral the majority of trains are 36-37 years old. The newest train you'd see is a 150 on the Bidston to Wrexham service.

 

[Bertie the bus]

This morning, for instance, I got a Virgin train from Milton Keynes to Euston. It was 11 cars long and every standard class seat was taken with people stood in the aisle, the vestibules and sat on the luggage stacks. Tonight I will get a northern train out of Leeds (the Goole one around 5 I hope) it will be a 150 + 153 and be nowhere near as busy. Yes, it will be mostly full but nowhere near the levels a similar time train out of Euston will be. There a 12 car LM train can be full and standing all the way to Bletchley.

That, frankly, is a ridiculous comment.

Firstly the Goole train will be heaving when it departs Leeds, on a par with many peak services in the south east. As it will be a 3 car unit it is fairly obvious that the total number of passengers will be fewer than on an 11 or 12 car one.

The way some people go on one would think Northerners never travel anywhere and just walk up and down their own street walking their whippet. Within a 30 mile radius of Manchester there is probably the best motorway network in the country and the morning peak on parts of the M60, M61 and M62 start earlier than on the M25 and are just as bad. Northerners do travel but less so on trains than in the south east, and some of the reasons are because there isn't the capacity, there aren't the same number of routes and there hasn't been the investment.

 

[pemma]

You referred to Pacers which are 75mph units.

Because 75mph 150s have never been used down South have they? :roll: While the LO 172s tearing through at 100mph would really suffer if they were limited to 75mph wouldn't they?

Paths are not at a premium on the north WCML in the same way

Slade Lane Junction is at maximum capacity and local services had to be cut back at peak times despite exponential growth. So yes it's not the same - it's worse in the North.

Pacers aren't the only slow-speed stock on there anyway.

You were talking about 75mph stock being an issue in the South being an issue in general.

 

[rdeez]

How about eliminating the pointless middle men (ROSCOs) who simply cream money off the railway while serving little useful purpose, and establish a government holding company for rolling stock.

Government takes leasing money, uses the % that the ROSCOs would have taken as profit for a 'rolling stock fund' and like magic, suddenly there's more money available for new stock across the board.

 

[Tetchytyke]

TPE did have some ex-CT 158s between 2004 and 2007 (CT initially releasing some after getting MML 170s.) The last 158s TPE operated were ex-CT ones.

I was thinking of the small number of 158s that arrived and were running in their original Regional Railways livery, I assumed they were all from Virgin Cross Country but obviously some were from Central. They looked alright until First slapped the tacky vinyls all across the bottom half of the bodysides.

Point is that most of the TPE 158 fleet was in a similar condition when First got rid of them. They were a bit battered as First ran them down, but that was about it. Trouble is that Northern have left them in that state whereas the other operators of them- EMT and SWT- gutted them and started again.

You wouldn't know the EMT 158s and Northern's 158s were the same train.

You don't need new trains to get that new train smell; you just need the operator to look after them.

 

[sprinterguy]

I was thinking of the small number of 158s that arrived and were running in their original Regional Railways livery, I assumed they were all from Virgin Cross Country but obviously some were from Central. They looked alright until First slapped the tacky vinyls all across the bottom half of the bodysides.

It's well away from the main point and splitting hairs I concede, but there was only the one class 158 that retained Regional Railways livery long enough to receive the First TPE tacky vinyls. Another four Regional Railways liveried 158s had been received from Scotrail around 3 years earlier and stood out for a little while before they were given the same Northern Spirit refurbishment and livery as the main fleet. The Central Trains units that came along later wore Central livery.

 

[sprinterguy]

You wouldn't know the EMT 158s and Northern's 158s were the same train.

You don't need new trains to get that new train smell; you just need the operator to look after them.

Exactly this!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because 75mph 150s have never been used down South have they?

Not many of them.

:roll: While the LO 172s tearing through at 100mph would really suffer if they were limited to 75mph wouldn't they?

Bringing TfL in is pointless unless you want the incredibly high London-level Council Taxes, business rates, the Congestion Charge (Manchester was offered it and rejected it) and so on.

Slade Lane Junction is at maximum capacity and local services had to be cut back at peak times despite exponential growth. So yes it's not the same - it's worse in the North.

I personally would cut Euston-Manchester to half hourly to solve that - but I doubt 100mph EMUs would make a massive difference. But that's a tiny part of the north WCML.

You were talking about 75mph stock being an issue in the South being an issue in general.

It would be on most lines, particularly low-acceleration 75mph DMUs. (There are 75mph EMUs in operation, i.e. 313s). And in any case it would make no sense to move DMUs into electrified areas. That leaves fGW, which might as well keep the stock it's got because it's too wide to fit in a lot of places, and Chiltern who have essentially leased it commercially. And a load of branch lines, some of which *are* using Sprinters.

Neil

 

[DarloRich]

That, frankly, is a ridiculous comment.

Firstly the Goole train will be heaving when it departs Leeds, on a par with many peak services in the south east. As it will be a 3 car unit it is fairly obvious that the total number of passengers will be fewer than on an 11 or 12 car one.

The way some people go on one would think Northerners never travel anywhere and just walk up and down their own street walking their whippet. Within a 30 mile radius of Manchester there is probably the best motorway network in the country and the morning peak on parts of the M60, M61 and M62 start earlier than on the M25 and are just as bad. Northerners do travel but less so on trains than in the south east, and some of the reasons are because there isn't the capacity, there aren't the same number of routes and there hasn't been the investment.

I am a very proud north easterner but I had to get rid of my whippet when I moved south sadly. Still got the flat cap, and the entire chip shop on my shoulder thanks :roll:

The Goole train won’t be heaving on a par with SE services. It really won’t. It will be busy and full but tolerable. Any sort of debate is often wasted because people don’t have the breadth of experience to call on - I know because I had exactly the same blinkered view, that it was all a fiddle/conspiracy/disgrace/biased (delete as appropriate) till I moved south. It is a different world. Honestly. I know you don’t want to hear that, but it is the truth.

That doesn’t mean that new trains aren’t needed, they are. Badly. That said buying a fairly limited number of new diesel trains would be a very expensive business. The key is a wider electrification programme allowing the removal of diesel stock completely from routes and replacement with, in the medium term, new trains. A follow on order to a future procurement would offer better value for money than buying diesels now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly this!

Indeed. Stagecoach are *very* good at keeping rolling stock (both bus and train) in excellent condition inside and out.

Neil

 

[Simon11]

I'm of the view that with existing subsidy, the North can't really afford to have new trains.

With huge demands for London train services, the high leasing costs of new trains can be met, however this wouldn't be a affordable plan for trains running up north.

 

[pemma]

I'm of the view that with existing subsidy, the North can't really afford to have new trains.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110920

With huge demands for London train services, the high leasing costs of new trains can be met, however this wouldn't be a affordable plan for trains running up north.

Southeastern and London Midland are heavily subsided franchises as well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't see anything wrong with cascading rolling stock which is fit for purpose. Once upon a time, 319s were fit for purpose on the routes which they currently work, but the Thameslink core is so busy that different rolling stock is required. The 319s have plenty of life in them though

If the Thameslink core is busy and the Class 319 units have plenty of life in them as you state, why bother moving them at all?

 

[dgl]

As a representative of a Mr. D. Cameron I would like to announce our new rolling stock plan.

Un-fortunately we (the government) would love to give them new rolling stock (the north that is) if they looked after the stuff they have. Just looking at the different state of 158's shows this.
We decided to give them pacers as they are already in a bad state and it is near impossible for you northerners to make them any worse.
Our plan is to give you all the pacers and the south west will have some of your (the North's) sprinters. The rest of the sprinters will be given to select local (southern) heritage lines and the remainder stored for future use (if necessary) in the south.
The sprinters will then be replaced by buses fitted with train wheels (well we have to do something with all the horrible ex London bendy buses).

We will also be introducing a southerner rail pass which will be required to board any non-pacer rolling stock. This will be available for all southerners and northern friends of the PM. All northerners will be unable to board any rolling stock better than a pacer.

But really in all fairness the north have had new trains much more recently than Devon/Cornwall and with the extra turbo's that will come following electrification of the GWML I think we will be alright for the time being and maybe even release some for northern operations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Giving it a good deep refurb (which can include changing seating config from London-optimal to wherever-optimal) and cascading it to somewhere else that it's a reasonable fit is the only reasonable answer, while it's still got plenty of service life left.

"Giving a good deep refurb" appears to be totally out of the question where Northern Rail cascaded cast-off's seem to be concerned and the word "refresh" with all the shades and hues of the meaning of that word is one that is used instead.

 

[pemma]

Un-fortunately we (the government) would love to give them new rolling stock (the north that is) if they looked after the stuff they have. Just looking at the different state of 158's shows this.

And Rail North's response:

The poor quality interiors is the combined fault of a Whitehall department, a company from Hampshire (Serco) and a Dutch company.

As we know First Capital Connect trains were always getting vandalised by people from the South (opposed to just being properly maintained), it seems an outrage that Govia Thameslink are getting new trains and their cast-offs are being sent North. In future can we please ensure the Southerners get cast-offs instead?

 

[W230]

If the Thameslink core is busy and the Class 319 units have plenty of life in them as you state, why bother moving them at all?

Because of the need for ATO operation in the core. Has all been explained before.

The Goole train won’t be heaving on a par with SE services. It really won’t. It will be busy and full but tolerable. Any sort of debate is often wasted because people don’t have the breadth of experience to call on - I know because I had exactly the same blinkered view, that it was all a fiddle/conspiracy/disgrace/biased (delete as appropriate) till I moved south. It is a different world. Honestly. I know you don’t want to hear that, but it is the truth.

In full agreement with you here. Having travelled extensively by train through all my adult life (using services involving Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester and Newcastle) on what I thought were rammed trains, when I went south I was in total amazement at the sheer number of commuters/people on trains. It is literally another world. Rammed is an understatement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As we know First Capital Connect trains were always getting vandalised by people from the South (opposed to just being properly maintained), it seems an outrage that Govia Thameslink are getting new trains and their cast-offs are being sent North. In future can we please ensure the Southerners get cast-offs instead?

fGW will be getting some 319s as well. So are LM, and I'm not whining about them. They will be welcome, and better than losing the extra capacity our existing older trains (321s) provide.

Neil

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Goole train won’t be heaving on a par with SE services. It really won’t.

That depends what train you get out of Euston in the evening, and which part of the train you sit in. I normally get the 1730 home and it's rare I have to share a double-seat with someone else (last night I got a table of four to myself- bliss). But then I turn left on to the platform and go to the very back of the train.

That said, one of the trains I get in the morning is full and standing and is 12-carriages. If there's less than 1000 people on that train I'll be amazed.

It also depends what TOC you use in the south east. Chiltern Railways trains are usually only 4-5 carriages in the peak, which isn't really much different to the length of trains in manchester or Leeds.

 

[DarloRich]

That depends what train you get out of Euston in the evening, and which part of the train you sit in. I normally get the 1730 home and it's rare I have to share a double-seat with someone else (last night I got a table of four to myself- bliss). But then I turn left on to the platform and go to the very back of the train.

That said, one of the trains I get in the morning is full and standing and is 12-carriages. If there's less than 1000 people on that train I'll be amazed.

It also depends what TOC you use in the south east. Chiltern Railways trains are usually only 4-5 carriages in the peak, which isn't really much different to the length of trains in manchester or Leeds.

I get a variety sadly. Wish I could fix to one of the better ones! I sometimes get the Crewe train to MK and double back as it can be easier.

I usually go right to the front if I can on the basis most people are lazy and will jump on the back!

 

[pemma]

It also depends what TOC you use in the south east. Chiltern Railways trains are usually only 4-5 carriages in the peak, which isn't really much different to the length of trains in manchester or Leeds.

There's a significant number of peak time Manchester services which are still only 2 carriages - some only a 2 car Pacer which is equivalent to 1.3 Turbostar carriages.

Anything above 4 carriages leaving Manchester is a long distance service.

 

[Taunton]

It also depends what TOC you use in the south east. Chiltern Railways trains are usually only 4-5 carriages in the peak, which isn't really much different to the length of trains in Manchester or Leeds.

This is very true, and Chiltern are without a doubt the worst, running just 2-car trains departing Marylebone even on the shoulder of the peaks, or in the weekends before Christmas. Maybe this is why they also have the worst reputation for putting departures up on the board only 30 seconds before it leaves - so half the passengers waiting won't make it in time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That depends what train you get out of Euston in the evening, and which part of the train you sit in. I normally get the 1730 home and it's rare I have to share a double-seat with someone else (last night I got a table of four to myself- bliss). But then I turn left on to the platform and go to the very back of the train.

Yep, that's the trick at some Euston platforms!

Some of these trains suffer from the problem that 8 cars is insufficient (not to avoid standing, you'd leave people behind) but 12 is too many, of course (or 4 and 8 respectively even more so). To solve that one LM would need some three car units like Southern have, that way you could form any length (over 6) you wanted.

1730 is a bit on the early side for commuters from the City who have a half hour Tube ride, as well.

Neil