[BBC News] "Trains outside London are 'cast-offs' MPs say"

[sprinterguy]

There's a significant number of peak time Manchester services which are still only 2 carriages - some only a 2 car Pacer which is equivalent to 1.3 Turbostar carriages.

Anything above 4 carriages leaving Manchester is a long distance service.

Oh, so it's this angle of the "oh woe is me, I'm a poor put-upon Northerner" sketch that we're playing this time :

Whenever it's talk of 319s being introduced to the North West, they're not good enough because almost everything out of Manchester is formed of 2 x 150s already, and lord forbid they replace the much coveted, "luxury" class 156 services...But when it's South East v North West, ALMOST EVERYTHING IS SINGLE PACERS!

Come on, pick one.

 

[pemma]

Oh, so it's this angle of the "oh woe is me, I'm a poor put-upon Northerner" sketch that we're playing this time :

Whenever it's talk of 319s being introduced to the North West, they're not good enough because almost everything out of Manchester is formed of 2 x 150s already, and lord forbid they replace the much coveted, "luxury" class 156 services...But when it's South East v North West, ALMOST EVERYTHING IS SINGLE PACERS!

Come on, pick one.

Now sit down as this will obviously be a big shock to you - the lines chosen for electrification have some of the highest loadings. For once DfT have used some common sense!

4 car 319s would be a nice capacity improvement for the Mid-Cheshire line or the Hope Valley line (stopping services) but for the Liverpool-Wigan and Manchester-Preston corridors we already have 4 car Sprinters and some of them don't have many empty seats.

 

[sprinterguy]

I get a variety sadly. Wish I could fix to one of the better ones! I sometimes get the Crewe train to MK and double back as it can be easier.

I usually go right to the front if I can on the basis most people are lazy and will jump on the back!

London commuters out of Euston on Virgin services seem to be a comparatively savvy bunch: Quite a lot will walk up towards the front, which was proven when the 11-car Pendos started to come into service: I had a "usual" seat up in Coach B (A useful reference for a mate of mine who used to join me at Coventry, not least because he was the one who usually brought the beers) after work, but when the 11-car units came into service I dropped back to a similar position in Coach D (same position on the platform as before) which I found to be a good deal quieter as the usual "crowd" were still going the extra mile making their way up to Coach B.

 

[sprinterguy]

Now sit down as this will obviously be a big shock to you - the lines chosen for electrification have some of the highest loadings. For once DfT have used some common sense!

It's nice when that happens - Glad I was sitting down first, as it is quite a rare occurrence and took me quite by surprise.

4 car 319s would be a nice capacity improvement for the Mid-Cheshire line or the Hope Valley line (stopping services) but for the Liverpool-Wigan and Manchester-Preston corridors we already have 4 car Sprinters and some of them don't have many empty seats.

The evening peak Hope Valley departure from Piccadilly is a 4 car class 142 formation, and though I don't know it personally, judging by the number of Pacers filling platforms 1 to 4 whenever I'm kicking around Piccadilly after 5pm, I would hope that the Mid-Cheshire line peak departure would be similar (think I heard it being announced as departing from one of those platforms last time). So where are these peak time single Pacers coming from? Mind you, we do have plenty in the North East, and on the Yorkshire side of the Pennines, too. And neither of those will be receiving "London cast offs".

 

[sprinterguy]

Is there an election soon?

Ahem. Struggling, prior to the cascade of the 319s, to think of "cast offs" that "not London" has been sent. The Pacers and Sprinters were built for Regional Railways, the 323s have worked their original routes all their lives, Turbostars, 185s, 175s, 332s etc are not "ex London" trains.

Coming back to the initial point, this sounds like outrage in advance (319s to Northern, 165s to the South West, “D Trains” angled towards provincial services) to confirmed or rumoured stock movements over the next couple of years.

The last “big” cascades I can recall into provincial areas were 150s from Birmingham to Northern and the South West, and, before that, the cascade of Transpennine class 158s to Northern, East Midlands and Great Western due to the arrival of new class 185s (You see that? Rail investment, in the north! ).

 

[pemma]

The evening peak Hope Valley departure from Piccadilly is a 4 car class 142 formation, and though I don't know it personally, judging by the number of Pacers filling platforms 1 to 4 whenever I'm kicking around Piccadilly after 5pm, I would hope that the Mid-Cheshire line peak departure would be similar (think I heard it being announced as departing from one of those platforms last time). So where are these peak time single Pacers coming from?

Are you thinking of the 17:23 Manchester-Chinley via Hazel Grove service?

4 x 142s arrive from Newton Heath and the front one forms the 16:58 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove service alone (then the 17:58 Stockport-Chester service later on.) The next 142 forms the 17:09 Manchester-Chester service alone and the back 2 form the 17:23 Manchester-Chinley as a 4 car working, so that's 33% of departures from that platform in 30 minutes which are 4 car Pacers and 67% which are 2 car Pacers.

The 16:17 Manchester-Chester is also booked as a single 142, as is the 15:59 Chester-Manchester (which are both overcrowded.) The Mid-Cheshire line was supposed to get 2 x 156s released from Manchester Airport-Liverpool and release a 142 for Bolton strengthening and a 150 for the Todmorden extension. However, DfT decided to send those 156s to TPE instead. :roll:

 

[AM9]

....As we know First Capital Connect trains were always getting vandalised by people from the South (opposed to just being properly maintained), it seems an outrage that Govia Thameslink are getting new trains and their cast-offs are being sent North. In future can we please ensure the Southerners get cast-offs instead?

Of course not all in the south are well educated and wealthy so vandalism is an issue here, and some lines seem to suffer from it more than others. Part of the problem that all operators of the Thameslink lines have had ever since it was wired is the shortage of units. The original 86 were split up during privatisation when some were kept south of the river. They even had their pantographs removed meaning that they couldn't work away from the DC lines. There were a few years when some of the peak hour trains were 4-car, despite some 317s being loaned to cover the Moorgate services.
With the delays over the 700s, something had to be done so all the 319s were recalled into Thameslink service but in the same period, passenger growth still outstripped the capacity. As you know, there were no other trains that could be deployed on the through line, so the only recourse was for Southern to procure some more 377s as a stop-gap loan, and latterly some 387s which will also be sent elsewhere as soon as the 700s are rolled out.
Now it might seem a bit unfair as nobody thought of giving those new trains to Northern to play with but the capacity problem would have resulted in breakdowns of the peak service had nothing been done. Maybe you could suggest a better solution rather than just complain that it isn't fair. Why not accept the opportunity to suggest a better solution?

 

[Bletchleyite]

London commuters out of Euston on Virgin services seem to be a comparatively savvy bunch: Quite a lot will walk up towards the front, which was proven when the 11-car Pendos started to come into service: I had a "usual" seat up in Coach B (A useful reference for a mate of mine who used to join me at Coventry, not least because he was the one who usually brought the beers) after work, but when the 11-car units came into service I dropped back to a similar position in Coach D (same position on the platform as before) which I found to be a good deal quieter as the usual "crowd" were still going the extra mile making their way up to Coach B.

I've tended to notice on LM services in platforms where turning back isn't an option (e.g. 9-10) that not the front coach, but the next to front, is the least busy. That's because people keep walking to the end seeing it's busy (looking for a double seat) but then don't turn back when they find all of it is fairly busy.

Neil

 

[sprinterguy]

Are you thinking of the 17:23 Manchester-Chinley via Hazel Grove service?

No, was thinking of the 17:50 Manchester to Sheffield - In which case, the Hope Valley line is doing quite well (relatively speaking) in terms of capacity, especially when you consider that most of the Rose Hill Marple "stoppers" at that end of the route tend to be pairs of 142s in my experience.

Interesting to see a breakdown of services, thanks for that. The Mid-Cheshire line seems to be quite badly afflicted with single Pacer syndrome compared to many others.

 

[pemma]

the cascade of Transpennine class 158s to Northern, East Midlands and Great Western due to the arrival of new class 185s (You see that? Rail investment, in the north! ).

As a result of that:
- North West 175s went to Arriva Trains Wales
- Voyagers off Manchester-Scotland went to enhance Euston services
- Northern 153s went to East Midlands Trains

While when LM got brand new trains, they off-loaded most of their old Sprinters continuing what Central had already started when they got 170s.

A bit of a difference!

 

[GatwickDepress]

Oh yes, I'm sick of getting London's cast-offs.


313212 departing on 2D80 0949 Ore to Hastings. by Sussex Eclectic, on Flickr


*runs*

 

[Bletchleyite]

While when LM got brand new trains, they off-loaded most of their old Sprinters continuing what Central had already started when they got 170s.

LM got 172s because they aren't getting electrification.

Not fair?

Neil

 

[pemma]

LM got 172s because they aren't getting electrification.

Not fair?

Bromsgrove?

LM got improvements a couple of years after they were proposed. 130 new diesel carriages were proposed for Northern for extra capacity in service by December 2012. That was changed to cascaded electric carriages as a result of electrification and to date none have been introduced in passenger service and when the electric carriages are introduced Northern will be forced to hand over some of it's best DMUs to TPE to cover for Chiltern taking the 170/3s, so no not fair.

 

[ExRes]

Of course not all in the south are well educated and wealthy so vandalism is an issue here, and some lines seem to suffer from it more than others.

Wasn't there a report that proved that the majority of vandalism on Thameslink trains was caused by northerners travelling from Luton and Gatwick Airports ?

 

[johnnychips]

There will be an item on Pacers on Look North Yorkshire at 1825-1855. Unfortunately I'll be out by then.

 

[AM9]

Wasn't there a report that proved that the majority of vandalism on Thameslink trains was caused by northerners travelling from Luton and Gatwick Airports ?

Do that many Northerners have passports?

 

[BritishRail83]

Oh yes, I'm sick of getting London's cast-offs.


313212 departing on 2D80 0949 Ore to Hastings. by Sussex Eclectic, on Flickr


*runs*

Nice picture

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wasn't there a report that proved that the majority of vandalism on Thameslink trains was caused by northerners travelling from Luton and Gatwick Airports ?

Since Manchester Airport is more than adequate to meet the demands of the "Whippet, flat cap and ferret brigade" and has buses, trams and trains running into the transport interchange there, with world-wide air services that those running Teeside International Airport would love to have (and also the two village airports that you mention), you do surprise me..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There will be an item on Pacers on Look North Yorkshire at 1825-1855. Unfortunately I'll be out by then.

Were the Pacers running from 1825-1855, something that George Stephenson had been told were not good enough either for the Stockton and Darlington Railway or indeed, to participate in the Rainhill Trials....

 

[Harpers Tate]

When comparing trains north vs. south, we see "age" factors coming up regularly. Like "...313s.....30 years old...." etc.

What is conveniently overlooked in such comparisons is the degree to which these things were fit for purpose when new, never mind their fitness for purpose 30 years later. Adding this factor in, how does a 313 compare with the much loved "pacer" fleet? Had the 313s (for example) been fabricated from a poor quality bus body on a 4-wheel wagon chassis, perhaps such comparisons would be more valid.

 

[Bald Rick]

There will be an item on Pacers on Look North Yorkshire at 1825-1855. Unfortunately I'll be out by then.

There was an item on BBC London news also. It used footage of London Bridge from last week and the week before. You can imagine the level of crowding. Then followed an interview with 2 friendly "men of the north" on an otherwise empty pacer.

 

[CC 72100]

Pacers especially were cheaply built and would never been allowed in the South East.

Take Northern for example. Their newest trains are now, what, 13 years old. They run on three lines out of Leeds and the same out of Bradford. A small drop in Northern's ocean.

Dear 'the North'

You are not the only people who have to contend with much of the local fleet being made up of 1980s DMUs, including pacers. Many of us are in the same situation.

Kind regards,

The South West, South Wales, East Anglia and East Midlands.

 

[LateThanNever]

Dear 'the North'

You are not the only people who have to contend with much of the local fleet being made up of 1980s DMUs, including pacers. Many of us are in the same situation.

Kind regards,

The South West, South Wales, East Anglia and East Midlands.

Very well said. I'd only add they they're alright in the SW having had a bit of TLC and able to just cope with the notoriously slow linespeed. Only trouble is insufficient of them...

...Coat and (hard) hat probably...

 

[tbtc]

The way some people go on one would think Northerners never travel anywhere and just walk up and down their own street walking their whippet

TBH I don't think that the attitude of some up north helps this argument - there's a lot of bitterness about Big Bad London

Within a 30 mile radius of Manchester there is probably the best motorway network in the country and the morning peak on parts of the M60, M61 and M62 start earlier than on the M25 and are just as bad

This is part of the problem with the "North is hard done by" line of argument.

Manchester/ Leeds/ Newcastle etc all have motorways (or "motorway equivalent" roads) and dual carriageways taking you into the city centre, they have dozens of NCPs/ multi storeys - they are fairly car friendly.

London is the other extreme - it has a congestion charge but few "fast" roads near the centre - so a lot more reliant upon public transport (hence more rail investment required to keep it going).

If most people were going to central Manchester/ Leeds/ Newcastle/ Liverpool/ Sheffield etc they'd consider driving. If they were going into central London, they'd probably need a train.

Oh, so it's this angle of the "oh woe is me, I'm a poor put-upon Northerner" sketch that we're playing this time :

Whenever it's talk of 319s being introduced to the North West, they're not good enough because almost everything out of Manchester is formed of 2 x 150s already, and lord forbid they replace the much coveted, "luxury" class 156 services...But when it's South East v North West, ALMOST EVERYTHING IS SINGLE PACERS!

Come on, pick one.

I know, it's infuriating. It's a bit like the "all London trains are modern and wonderful" argument, yet the minute there's talk of 319s coming north you get "these London cast-offs are rubbish, I'd heard they are held together with playdoh" kind of response.

One moment it's "Pacers don't just do short branch lines, they regularly work journeys like Manchester to Blackpool" but when you point out that 319s will be coming to that route then it becomes "Manchester to Blackpool only gets four coach 156s"...

(see also "319s won't be much of a capacity increase over a 323 because the 323's 3+2 seating means it has hundreds of seats" compared with "319s are unfit for Manchester because their unsuitable 3+2 seating won't be fully utilised")

Reality is that the CP5 electrification will see over a dozen departures per hour from Manchester converted to EMU operation - they're surely not all doubled up 156s!

Plus, looks like no DMUs will be leaving northern England (beyond eighteen coaches of 170s) - which means that the most deserving routes that aren't being electrified should see an increase in seating capacity too - something often forgotten on here!

130 new diesel carriages were proposed for Northern for extra capacity in service by December 2012

You mean the "jam tomorrow" proposal from the departing Labour government, who were keen to promise anything to anyone in their final months?

Were the Pacers running from 1825-1855, something that George Stephenson had been told were not good enough either for the Stockton and Darlington Railway or indeed, to participate in the Rainhill Trials....

It's rare that we get anything "new" on these kind of threads, yet alone anything amusing, but I have to admit that I laughed out loud at that one

 

[transmanche]

In future can we please ensure the Southerners get cast-offs instead?

And which line has the oldest 'cast-off' MUs in the country? The Bakerloo line on LU: 1972 stock cascaded from the Northern line. [*]

In fact which lines have the oldest MUs in the country? The Great Northern Inner Suburban routes with their 313s.

When I was a young lad back in the mid-80s, I occasionally read some of the rail magazines. On one occasion I even wrote in with a letter and got it published. The subject? There had been an article on complaints that southern cast-offs were being sent north (Class 508s from SR to Merseyside) and why did only the north get southern cast offs. I wrote in pointing out that the Bakerloo line was receiving 'new' trains: 1959 stock to replace the 1938 stock. Plus ça change...


* Although some had worked the Bakerloo prior to the Jubilee line opening.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Being an environmentally friendly sort of person, could I ask you all to recycle your posts for next time this sort of thread pops up again?

Nice picture

Thanks. Ore's a bugger of a station to get lighting decent in, always overshadowed by trees in the morning!

 

[dgl]

Line with the most elderly cascaded mu's in Britain (and not a volunteer run heritage line) is the island line with 1938 tube stock.

 

[deltic08]

some sense!

As a former sleepy northern commuter who was relocated to the south I can say that commuting in the SE is a different order of magnitude to the north.

This morning, for instance, I got a Virgin train from Milton Keynes to Euston. It was 11 cars long and every standard class seat was taken with people stood in the aisle, the vestibules and sat on the luggage stacks. Tonight I will get a northern train out of Leeds (the Goole one around 5 I hope) it will be a 150 + 153 and be nowhere near as busy. Yes, it will be mostly full but nowhere near the levels a similar time train out of Euston will be. There a 12 car LM train can be full and standing all the way to Bletchley.

A different world – before we consider the cost of the tickets.

Good job you don't use the "about 5" from Leeds to Harrogate then. Some evenings the trains can't leave because there is no room for the conductor to board and passengers are ejected by BTP before the train is allowed to leave. Harrogate isn't the only line out of Leeds at this time where there is gross overcrowding. You just happened to have picked the quietest route from Leeds with the least number of stations and the lowest growth in the last ten years.

Does this happen in the Southeast? No because additional stock is ordered all the time to meet growth regardless of cost.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Does this happen in the Southeast? No because additional stock is ordered all the time to meet growth regardless of cost.

Um, it does actually.

The 171/7s operating Brighton to Ashford can get dangerously overcrowded. Passengers have been told not to board a few times, mainly during very hot periods. There are no plans to strengthen these services.

 

[deltic08]

Oh, so it's this angle of the "oh woe is me, I'm a poor put-upon Northerner" sketch that we're playing this time :

Whenever it's talk of 319s being introduced to the North West, they're not good enough because almost everything out of Manchester is formed of 2 x 150s already, and lord forbid they replace the much coveted, "luxury" class 156 services...But when it's South East v North West, ALMOST EVERYTHING IS SINGLE PACERS!

Come on, pick one.

At the risk of being banned from this site, you really are a silly arse.

The population of the North is twice that of London and the economy of Yorkshire is greater than that of many countries.

I am not originally from the North but Northerners tell things as they are to the point of bluntness and we need more stock now to cope with growth and are not getting it for another decade. That is not whinging. This suppresses potential and restricts economic growth. Would the southeast tolerate this? No they do not as we hear regularly on this site but of course that is not whinging.

We just want the same spend per head of population as in the southeast but are a long, long way behind.

Pacers on the Cumbrian Coast line is unacceptable for a journey of that length with much jointed track. It is false economy as passengers are deterred especially those on a scenic trip.

I have planned to use a Northern Day Ranger in the next few weeks using the S&C, Cumbrian Coast line and Lancaster-Leeds because I want to, not because I have to, but if I am likely to be on a Pacer for 3 hours then forget it.

 

[AM9]

At the risk of being banned from this site, you really are a silly arse.

The population of the North is twice that of London and the economy of Yorkshire is greater than that of many countries.

What has the population of 'London' got to do with it? We are talking about travel from the South-East into London. So instead of about 8 million (which is the population of the GLA area) the figure is the home counties and some others like Hampshire, Sussex, Beds, Suffolk, Cambs, Norfolk, Oxon, and parts of Wiltshire. The real population of the London and south-east travel area is nearer 20 million. Now compare that with 'the North'.
You even mention "population as in the southeast" below so make your mind up, - who are you to abuse other posters.

We just want the same spend per head of population as in the southeast but are a long, long way behind.

Expenditure is proportional to the number of passengers who pay for the services. Why base it on the number of non-travellers or those who use the separately funded road systems? As the north has road systems that serve the city centres far better than the south-east does, maybe the investment in better transport for the north was spent on these roads.
About once a month, a new thread is posted about how the poor north suffers at the behest of London extravagance. Each time pseudo-facts and half-truths are trotted out about how the north gets 'London cast-offs' whilst London gets brand new trains. Many of the northern protagonists post the same rubbish that has been discredited in the previous thread (often by more objective posters from the north), - it's as if they don't read the answers to their own questions.
These irrational postings on these threads are indicative of the massive chip that many seem to have on their shoulders. Ironically, most of the invective seems to be coming from west of the Pennines where there is an electrification programme in full swing, - those further east seem to be more rational about the matter.
This thread is just another playing of the broken record. To give any of your arguments credibility, just read some of the previous discussions and see where you are going wrong.